An 'E' counter stamped 1815 quarter with a twist

Bustquarterhound

2windy2fish

Is the twist the counter stamp? Or the fact that it straight graded?

Bustquarterhound

The twist is the E is double stamped

BadMetal

Awesome - first and only one I've seen like that!

ShaunBC5

Is the E stamp a common/known thing?

Bustquarterhound

The 1815 and 1825 quarters are known to have E and L counterstamps on them. No definitive reasons as to why are known just a lot of speculations

LukeMarshall

With the many known examples of the counterstamped 'E' Bust Quarter, this is a nice 'variety' with the double stamping

lilolme

Did a search and here is an old thread discussing the E and L. A few of the members still active so might get some more going.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/542514/guess-this-belongs-here-quot-e-quot-or-quot-l-quot-on-bust-quarters

NumisOxide

That is different. Cool!

scubafuel

Very cool! I remember discussing this coin with some other quarter guys when it came up. Was the first doubled counter stamp we could remember.

jesbroken

Here's something I read and saved regarding the subject by Walter Breen:
In 1982, noted numismatic author Walter Breen suggested the counterstamped quarters were used as school prizes, with the “E” standing for “English” and the “L” Latin.
Do not know if this is factual or not, but shows that someone has been thinking about it for over 40 years.
Jim

jesbroken

An article by Q David Bowers on the subject can be found here if interested:
https://news.coinupdate.com/bowers-on-collecting-the-mysterious-quarter-dollars/
Jim

Namvet69

My initial impression of the doubled E is the striking tool caused the double tap cause it bounced. In my experience of using small sledges, die tools, chiseles and the like.

Bustquarterhound

I think it was Breen who mentioned it was rumored that there was also an R M or H counterstamps also. Not knowing what kind of magnification was available at the time and with my aging eyes I could see how someone might see different letters on this one.

logger7

My understanding was that PCGS does not straight grade these.

1TwoBits

That is a neat little twist, and I haven’t seen another like it.

@logger7 , PCGS does straight grade E and L counterstamped bust quarters, and have for a number of years now. In fact they will straight grade any counterstamped coin as long as it isn’t cleaned and the counterstamp is the only “damage.”

1TwoBits

lordmarcovan

Neato! The “E” and “L” c/s CBQs are interesting enough by themselves, but yes, that’s quite the interesting additional twist, indeed.

lordmarcovan

@1TwoBits said:
In fact they will straight grade any counterstamped coin as long as it isn’t cleaned and the counterstamp is the only “damage.”

Oh, now that I didn’t know, and it’s information I’m glad to have, because I find counterstamps interesting, yet I’m a bit of a stickler about only including straight-graded coins in my primary collection.

GoBust

That's pretty cool!

jdillane

@lordmarcovan said:

@1TwoBits said:
In fact they will straight grade any counterstamped coin as long as it isn’t cleaned and the counterstamp is the only “damage.”

Oh, now that I didn’t know, and it’s information I’m glad to have, because I find counterstamps interesting, yet I’m a bit of a stickler about only including straight-graded coins in my primary collection.

That's news to me as well. I've a gaggle of bust halves from what was originally known as the Upstate New York Cache and then some were rebranded in NGC slabs as the Mohawk Valley Hoard. Some 500 coins were found that had been buried under a tree nearly 200 yrs ago. All but one was countermarked. Many were improperly cleaned. NGC gennied those that were submitted. Some of mine are improperly cleaned but some aren't and I'd be tickled to see them in PCGS plastic with a straight grade.

LukeMarshall

@1TwoBits said:
That is a neat little twist, and I haven’t seen another like it.

@logger7 , PCGS does straight grade E and L counterstamped bust quarters, and have for a number of years now. In fact they will straight grade any counterstamped coin as long as it isn’t cleaned and the counterstamp is the only “damage.”

1TwoBits

Here is my Counterstamped, L punched gold coin that PCGS denotated as XF Details code 98 Damage

@LukeMarshall said:

Here is mine, and yes I weighed it and it is struck on an underweight planchet.

There is another thread I am searching for this morning with links to the practice of assay offices or banks counterstamping these to denotate them being underweight.

Edit to add.

I sent this to PCGS a few years ago, and received a details grade, but I didnt include any backstory, so maybe with proper documentation it would straight grade?

Were I to send it in again, I would include some supporting documentation to hopefully get them to straight grade it.

Maywood

Lots of speculation about who did this and when, but nobody has mentioned what punches may have been used. If they were indeed done in the Mint by the Mint for whatever purpose it should be simple enough for some numismatic sleuth to match the letter punches to something on a coin somewhere. I doubt the Mint would have used different punches when letters needed were readily accessible. If done outside of the Mint it might be much harder to match a punch but that seems to be the key to the whole thing. Find a matching letter punch and I think we'd be well on our way to understanding who did it and why.

Absent any evidence like that everything is pure speculation with no basis in fact.

scubafuel

@jdillane i don’t think the Mohawk coins would be straight graded as they were stamped with a tool mark and not a letter or word. But worth a call to see!

ricko

The 'E' and 'L' stamped coins are discussed here about once a year or so.... Seems like it may be a forever mystery. Maybe one day, an old letter or document will turn up with a reference to this anomaly. Cheers, RickO

CaptHenway

I have never seen one of the quarters with the counterstamp double punched. I like it!

telephoto1

I was about to talk about Dave Bowers mentioning that the L stood for Light weight, and E for Excess weight... but I see it's been covered and confirmed already. Cool piece, and an error of sorts I suppose, as it was definitely done at the Mint. OP has some interesting pieces. Thanks for sharing.

Nysoto

That is very impressive.

What @LukeMarshall mentioned is a possibility that could potentially be proven, as "L" was stamped on lightweight gold coins by Sub-Treasuries, in different font size and various locations on coins (my example is posted below).

The proof would reside within the Sub-Treasury records at the College Park National Archives, if someone was willing to spend considerable time going through the records. At a minimum, a great research paper could be written on the gold coins.

Maywood

My first encounter with these quarters was about 10 years ago at a small, monthly coin show of about 35-40 dealers. Someone showed up at our table with a coin, I think it was an 1825 with an "E" in a Mint State NGC holder. It was a beautiful coin but we didn't really know anything about them so we passed after talking to the owner for about half an hour. Now in retirement I wish I had stretched for it and put it away.

logger7

A NH shop had two of the 1825 "L" counterstampled quarters; one straight graded at NGC. I sent it to GC where it sold over 10 years ago.

Desert Moon

@logger7 said:
My understanding was that PCGS does not straight grade these.

?

ARCO

Well, that is extremely cool. I have always wanted a capped bust quarter with the "E" or "L".

lkeigwin

Love these quarters. And the speculation about their counter stamps.

Here's a clip about them from an old HA auction. Italicized text added.
Lance.

The most plausible theory to date for the E and L quarters has just been published in the John Reich Journal (a two part article by Ted McAuley in the John Reich Journal (Volume 16/ Issue 1, July 2004). It is a long but well researched article, and we highly recommend it. In short, the author proposes that the Utopian community of Harmonists that lived around Economy, Pennsylvania used these coins as a method of voting during the time of The Great Schism in 1832. The community was divided between the original members who founded the colony in Economy in 1815 and those who wanted to take the community in a different direction, that faction being led by Count Leon. The vote was two to one against the Leon faction, which is the approximate ratio that we find the E to L counterstamps today. The coins are generally found in high grades, indicating short-term usage.

Bustquarterhound

I would like to thank all of you who took the time to comment your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Dave

telephoto1

@lkeigwin said:
Love these quarters. And the speculation about their counter stamps.

Here's a clip about them from an old HA auction. Italicized text added.
Lance.

The most plausible theory to date for the E and L quarters has just been published in the John Reich Journal (a two part article by Ted McAuley in the John Reich Journal (Volume 16/ Issue 1, July 2004). It is a long but well researched article, and we highly recommend it. In short, the author proposes that the Utopian community of Harmonists that lived around Economy, Pennsylvania used these coins as a method of voting during the time of The Great Schism in 1832. The community was divided between the original members who founded the colony in Economy in 1815 and those who wanted to take the community in a different direction, that faction being led by Count Leon. The vote was two to one against the Leon faction, which is the approximate ratio that we find the E to L counterstamps today. The coins are generally found in high grades, indicating short-term usage.

Interesting but if true and the only reason was for voting- then why quarters, and why ONLY quarters? 25c was a lot of money at that time. Why not cents? Why not various circ coins for that matter? (OR do they mean ALL E and L c/s coins of the period?)