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Midnight Minting

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 23, 2023 9:04AM in U.S. Coin Forum

With the $1M sale of @RedCopper's PCGS MS65RD 1958 DDO cent, the discussions of Mint shenanigans have come up again. While opinions on these coins can be strong, they certainly seem to have strong demand.

This thread is to collect and discuss these midnight minted coins!

Here are some to get us started.

Please post and discuss!


Thread on the 1913 Liberty Nickel:

Threads on the Ike Clovers:

Comments

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    MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,519 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are we just talking about unauthorized coins...or are we including coins like the 1804 Dollars?

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    MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,519 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MidLifeCrisis said:
    Are we just talking about unauthorized coins...or are we including coins like the 1804 Dollars?

    To clarify, I'm referring to the "Class II" and "Class III" 1804 Dollars.

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see no reason to think that these doubled die strikes are anything other than regular production errors, struck during normal working hours and not at "midnight." Whether or not most of the production run was caught at the Mint and destroyed remains to be seen. Considering the publicity that the 1955 DDO's got, it is not inconceivable that a 1958 error might have been aggressively hunted for and destroyed before they got to the counting and bagging room. Whether or not a few of them had help leaving the Mint remains to be seen.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • Options
    seanqseanq Posts: 8,575 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    I see no reason to think that these doubled die strikes are anything other than regular production errors, struck during normal working hours and not at "midnight." Whether or not most of the production run was caught at the Mint and destroyed remains to be seen. Considering the publicity that the 1955 DDO's got, it is not inconceivable that a 1958 error might have been aggressively hunted for and destroyed before they got to the counting and bagging room. Whether or not a few of them had help leaving the Mint remains to be seen.

    I whole-heartedly agree, here is what I posted on the other thread about the 58 DDO:

    "I do not think this was made on purpose, rather I believe it was a genuine doubled die that was put into use, and the full production quarantined before release.

    The primary evidence for this is the nature of the doubled die itself. The argument goes that if someone wanted to create this variety on purpose, they would have mimicked the 1955 DDO, which was a strong class I (rotated die) DD. However the 1958 is a class V (pivoted hub) DD, evidenced by strong doubling on just a small portion of the obverse. Further, the pivot point is around K-5, meaning the strongest doubling is in the mottoes, and little to none on the date. Neither of those are what you would expect if someone were making a bespoke variety to capitalize on the popularity of the 1955.

    I should point out that my first exposure to this theory was in the Lincoln Cent Doubled Die book authored by John Wexler. He was given access to the two discovery coins and photographed them extensively in the book."

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • Options
    dbldie55dbldie55 Posts: 7,719 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you know the story behind the 1955 DD, the 1958 does not appear to be too big of mystery.

    Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
  • Options
    OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2023 4:24PM

    Midnight minting or midnight acquisition? This one happened on a midnight shift during a holiday weekend. Half the workforce was off. But they screwed up, they weren't that good. They forgot the date! 🤣 😂

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • Options
    DCWDCW Posts: 6,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Floridafacelifter said:
    I think this gold Washington Quarter that just sold is pretty cool


    What a surprise, 1970-s!
    I didn't even need to see the date to determine that 😆 ! Story goes, a gold 1898 half eagle remained in the bin until 72 years later when it was filled with clad quarters, then...

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DCW said:

    @Floridafacelifter said:
    I think this gold Washington Quarter that just sold is pretty cool


    What a surprise, 1970-s!
    I didn't even need to see the date to determine that 😆 ! Story goes, a gold 1898 half eagle remained in the bin until 72 years later when it was filled with clad quarters, then...

    Imagine if it was struck on an 1870-S?

  • Options
    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 58 DDO is a genuine mint error. How does that bring us to all the shenanigan so called errors? Im confused.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    The 58 DDO is a genuine mint error. How does that bring us to all the shenanigan so called errors? Im confused.

    Shenanigans was brought up in the 58 DDO thread here:

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1086660/stewart-blays-1958-lincoln-cent-doubled-die-obverse-pcgs-ms-65-rd-cac-sold-1-136-250-with-juice/p1

  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2023 6:59PM

    @seanq said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    I see no reason to think that these doubled die strikes are anything other than regular production errors, struck during normal working hours and not at "midnight." Whether or not most of the production run was caught at the Mint and destroyed remains to be seen. Considering the publicity that the 1955 DDO's got, it is not inconceivable that a 1958 error might have been aggressively hunted for and destroyed before they got to the counting and bagging room. Whether or not a few of them had help leaving the Mint remains to be seen.

    I whole-heartedly agree, here is what I posted on the other thread about the 58 DDO:

    "I do not think this was made on purpose, rather I believe it was a genuine doubled die that was put into use, and the full production quarantined before release.

    The primary evidence for this is the nature of the doubled die itself. The argument goes that if someone wanted to create this variety on purpose, they would have mimicked the 1955 DDO, which was a strong class I (rotated die) DD. However the 1958 is a class V (pivoted hub) DD, evidenced by strong doubling on just a small portion of the obverse. Further, the pivot point is around K-5, meaning the strongest doubling is in the mottoes, and little to none on the date. Neither of those are what you would expect if someone were making a bespoke variety to capitalize on the popularity of the 1955.

    I should point out that my first exposure to this theory was in the Lincoln Cent Doubled Die book authored by John Wexler. He was given access to the two discovery coins and photographed them extensively in the book."

    Sean Reynolds

    That is an interesting theory, but I'm not sure I would consider that evidence. I imagine there's no exact science to creating a doubled die and you don't always get what you want, even if done intentionally.

  • Options
    goodmoney4badmoneygoodmoney4badmoney Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭

    Sometimes I think they weren’t imaginative enough, why isn’t the 1970-S struck off center so we can see the gold designs? C’mon people…

  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2023 7:40AM

    @LindyS said:
    Shenanigans, Mint Sport, Assisted striking errors exist from Philly, Denver & San Francsico USA Mints

    Errors either made on purpose or naturals riddled out of coinage production stream & then spirited out for collector market. Happened in other countries too.

    Good point. Whether or not the 1958 DDO was struck intentionally or not, the way they were distributed seems to be suspect.

  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2023 7:30AM

    @LindyS said:
    I was over the moon when I came across this, knowing it can actually fit in SMS flat pack & is from year one of San Francisco Mint reopening after being mothballed in 1956.

    My 1965 SMS 10c struck on SMS Type II 25c planchet remains unique after 58 years.

    What a great coin!

    Have you thought about sending it in for a TrueView?

  • Options
    Mr Lindy Mr Lindy Posts: 982 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2023 7:41AM

    One 1958 Philly Mint employee owned all known examples seen by Breen at a coin show and later Walter documented that observation naming owner of the roll as Ludovico in print years before first one traded hands.

    Shenanigans ?

    @Zoins said:

    @LindyS said:
    Shenanigans, Mint Sport, Assisted striking errors exist from Philly, Denver & San Francsico USA Mints

    Errors either made on purpose or naturals riddled out of coinage production stream & then spirited out for collector market. Happened in other countries too.

    Good point. Whether or not the 1958 DDO was struck intentionally or not, they way they were distributed seems to be suspect.

    @Zoins said:

    @LindyS said:
    Shenanigans, Mint Sport, Assisted striking errors exist from Philly, Denver & San Francsico USA Mints

    Errors either made on purpose or naturals riddled out of coinage production stream & then spirited out for collector market. Happened in other countries too.

    Good point. Whether or not the 1958 DDO was struck intentionally or not, they way they were distributed seems to be suspect.

  • Options
    GaCoinGuyGaCoinGuy Posts: 2,721 ✭✭✭✭

    Some seriously cool coinage in this thread. I would love to know the story behind the 3-piece Ike.

    imageimage

  • Options
    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GaCoinGuy said:
    Some seriously cool coinage in this thread. I would love to know the story behind the 3-piece Ike.

    Something like this:

    Guy at mint: "Hey, let's make a 3-piece Ike while we're at it."
    Other guy at mint: "OK, I'll get the planchets."
    Third guy at mint: "I've got a buyer lined up."

  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @messydesk said:

    @GaCoinGuy said:
    Some seriously cool coinage in this thread. I would love to know the story behind the 3-piece Ike.

    Something like this:

    Guy at mint: "Hey, let's make a 3-piece Ike while we're at it."
    Other guy at mint: "OK, I'll get the planchets."
    Third guy at mint: "I've got a buyer lined up."

    What about, we're 3 people, why not make a 3 part coin and each keep a piece?

  • Options
    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Floridafacelifter ... How did they identify the 1970S quarter as being on an 1898 $5 coin/planchet??? I looked at the pictures and saw no visible signs. Cheers, RickO

  • Options
    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:

    @GaCoinGuy said:
    Some seriously cool coinage in this thread. I would love to know the story behind the 3-piece Ike.

    Something like this:

    Guy at mint: "Hey, let's make a 3-piece Ike while we're at it."
    Other guy at mint: "OK, I'll get the planchets."
    Third guy at mint: "I've got a buyer lined up."

    What about, we're 3 people, why not make a 3 part coin and each keep a piece?

    Or a combination. Third guy lines up a buyer for the first piece, brokers a deal to get the other two to sell theirs.

  • Options
    FloridafacelifterFloridafacelifter Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    @Floridafacelifter ... How did they identify the 1970S quarter as being on an 1898 $5 coin/planchet??? I looked at the pictures and saw no visible signs. Cheers, RickO

    I actually have never seen the coin in hand but apparently the date is faintly visible in the field under the eagle and the diameters almost match.

  • Options
    Mr Lindy Mr Lindy Posts: 982 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2023 8:02AM

    Zoins,

    No true view needed, unless you think it would benefit me ?

    What would true viewing cost me in PCGS fees ?
    Would they crack it out or image it in existing slab ?

    I have no clue to cost as I have never submitted or resubmitted a coin to PCGS or NGC or ...

    What are PCGS fees due on a registered insured value $50,000 coin ?

    @Zoins said:

    @LindyS said:
    I was over the moon when I came across this, knowing it can actually fit in SMS flat pack & is from year one of San Francisco Mint reopening after being mothballed in 1956.

    My 1965 SMS 10c struck on SMS Type II 25c planchet remains unique after 58 years.

    What a great coin!

    Have you thought about sending it in for a TrueView?

  • Options
    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:

    @GaCoinGuy said:
    Some seriously cool coinage in this thread. I would love to know the story behind the 3-piece Ike.

    Something like this:

    Guy at mint: "Hey, let's make a 3-piece Ike while we're at it."
    Other guy at mint: "OK, I'll get the planchets."
    Third guy at mint: "I've got a buyer lined up."

    What about, we're 3 people, why not make a 3 part coin and each keep a piece?

    They knew some sucker would pay a lot for this concocted "error" and they'd rather have the money he would pay for it.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:

    @GaCoinGuy said:
    Some seriously cool coinage in this thread. I would love to know the story behind the 3-piece Ike.

    Something like this:

    Guy at mint: "Hey, let's make a 3-piece Ike while we're at it."
    Other guy at mint: "OK, I'll get the planchets."
    Third guy at mint: "I've got a buyer lined up."

    What about, we're 3 people, why not make a 3 part coin and each keep a piece?

    They knew some sucker would pay a lot for this concocted "error" and they'd rather have the money he would pay for it.

    Did we ever find out who was paying for these 50 years ago?

  • Options
    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Floridafacelifter... Thank you... I tried magnifying the image, could not see anything. Perhaps in hand, under special lighting.... Cheers, RickO

  • Options
    Mr Lindy Mr Lindy Posts: 982 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lonesome John Devine had pounds of these proof error goodies in mid 1970's

    @Zoins said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:

    @GaCoinGuy said:
    Some seriously cool coinage in this thread. I would love to know the story behind the 3-piece Ike.

    Something like this:

    Guy at mint: "Hey, let's make a 3-piece Ike while we're at it."
    Other guy at mint: "OK, I'll get the planchets."
    Third guy at mint: "I've got a buyer lined up."

    What about, we're 3 people, why not make a 3 part coin and each keep a piece?

    They knew some sucker would pay a lot for this concocted "error" and they'd rather have the money he would pay for it.

    Did we ever find out who was paying for these 50 years ago?

  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2023 8:12AM

    @LindyS said:
    Lonesome John Devine had pounds of these proof error goodies in mid 1970's

    @Zoins said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:

    @GaCoinGuy said:
    Some seriously cool coinage in this thread. I would love to know the story behind the 3-piece Ike.

    Something like this:

    Guy at mint: "Hey, let's make a 3-piece Ike while we're at it."
    Other guy at mint: "OK, I'll get the planchets."
    Third guy at mint: "I've got a buyer lined up."

    What about, we're 3 people, why not make a 3 part coin and each keep a piece?

    They knew some sucker would pay a lot for this concocted "error" and they'd rather have the money he would pay for it.

    Did we ever find out who was paying for these 50 years ago?

    Very interesting. I wonder how many of these can be traced back to him for provenance purposes.

  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LindyS said:
    No true view needed, unless you think it would benefit me ?

    Do you want to make money with the new NFT proposal being discussed ;)

  • Options
    DCWDCW Posts: 6,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:

    @GaCoinGuy said:
    Some seriously cool coinage in this thread. I would love to know the story behind the 3-piece Ike.

    Something like this:

    Guy at mint: "Hey, let's make a 3-piece Ike while we're at it."
    Other guy at mint: "OK, I'll get the planchets."
    Third guy at mint: "I've got a buyer lined up."

    What about, we're 3 people, why not make a 3 part coin and each keep a piece?

    Yeah, and they could make necklaces out of them wear them to remind themselves they are best friends forever..."

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • Options
    OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OAKSTAR said:
    Midnight minting or midnight acquisition? This one happened on a midnight shift during a holiday weekend. Half the workforce was off. But they screwed up, they weren't that good. They forgot the date! 🤣 😂

    It looks like an aluminum nail. I wonder if that was intentional, rather then a steel nail. Would the strike on an aluminum nail be better then on steel?

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • Options
    FrazFraz Posts: 1,856 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is what he had in his pocket?
    Aluminum would affect the dies less?
    Crunching different materials in order to create a specific effect when a coin follows?

  • Options
    CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,603 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know nothing about errors, but that clover Ike is way cool (and the pic does a nice job of displaying it in all its glory).

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • Options
    IkesTIkesT Posts: 2,580 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LindyS said:
    One 1958 Philly Mint employee owned all known examples seen by Breen at a coin show and later Walter documented that observation naming owner of the roll as Ludovico in print years before first one traded hands.

    Shenanigans ?

    @Zoins said:

    @LindyS said:
    Shenanigans, Mint Sport, Assisted striking errors exist from Philly, Denver & San Francsico USA Mints

    Errors either made on purpose or naturals riddled out of coinage production stream & then spirited out for collector market. Happened in other countries too.

    Good point. Whether or not the 1958 DDO was struck intentionally or not, they way they were distributed seems to be suspect.

    @Zoins said:

    @LindyS said:
    Shenanigans, Mint Sport, Assisted striking errors exist from Philly, Denver & San Francsico USA Mints

    Errors either made on purpose or naturals riddled out of coinage production stream & then spirited out for collector market. Happened in other countries too.

    Good point. Whether or not the 1958 DDO was struck intentionally or not, they way they were distributed seems to be suspect.

    Has this been independently confirmed by anyone more reliable than Breen?

  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @IkesT said:

    @LindyS said:
    One 1958 Philly Mint employee owned all known examples seen by Breen at a coin show and later Walter documented that observation naming owner of the roll as Ludovico in print years before first one traded hands.

    Shenanigans ?

    @Zoins said:

    @LindyS said:
    Shenanigans, Mint Sport, Assisted striking errors exist from Philly, Denver & San Francsico USA Mints

    Errors either made on purpose or naturals riddled out of coinage production stream & then spirited out for collector market. Happened in other countries too.

    Good point. Whether or not the 1958 DDO was struck intentionally or not, they way they were distributed seems to be suspect.

    @Zoins said:

    @LindyS said:
    Shenanigans, Mint Sport, Assisted striking errors exist from Philly, Denver & San Francsico USA Mints

    Errors either made on purpose or naturals riddled out of coinage production stream & then spirited out for collector market. Happened in other countries too.

    Good point. Whether or not the 1958 DDO was struck intentionally or not, they way they were distributed seems to be suspect.

    Has this been independently confirmed by anyone more reliable than Breen?

    When was each specimen first seen outside of Breen?

  • Options
    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @IkesT said:

    @LindyS said:
    One 1958 Philly Mint employee owned all known examples seen by Breen at a coin show and later Walter documented that observation naming owner of the roll as Ludovico in print years before first one traded hands.

    Shenanigans ?

    @Zoins said:

    @LindyS said:
    Shenanigans, Mint Sport, Assisted striking errors exist from Philly, Denver & San Francsico USA Mints

    Errors either made on purpose or naturals riddled out of coinage production stream & then spirited out for collector market. Happened in other countries too.

    Good point. Whether or not the 1958 DDO was struck intentionally or not, they way they were distributed seems to be suspect.

    @Zoins said:

    @LindyS said:
    Shenanigans, Mint Sport, Assisted striking errors exist from Philly, Denver & San Francsico USA Mints

    Errors either made on purpose or naturals riddled out of coinage production stream & then spirited out for collector market. Happened in other countries too.

    Good point. Whether or not the 1958 DDO was struck intentionally or not, they way they were distributed seems to be suspect.

    Has this been independently confirmed by anyone more reliable than Breen?

    Good point. For all we know, Breen could have later further described Ludovico as a disembodied head with a long, curly wig that spoke with a heavy French accent.

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