Then what was the point of posting? To silently stay that > @LindyS said:
Breen wrote he saw a roll of 58 DDO at a show. Roll owned by an ex 1958 Philly Mint employee. That owner sold two or three, 47 more lurking in his estate. Charles Ludvico's Shenanigans
@Walkerlover said:
This doesn’t make sense. Even though it’s super rare it’s still only a double die error penny , and not as dramatic as the 1955 double die. What great gold you can buy with a $1,000,000.
The key is that there are only 3 known and this is the finest.
Of course, we have no idea whether that's true. Personally, I believe that if it were, additional examples would have already surfaced by this time.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Chevyrose said:
I know that this variety was discovered in bags from the mint.
There were many more of them, but they were destroyed and only 3 were saved
Stu told me this 3 days before he died
If they were actually found in bags, it’s extremely unlikely that anyone knows how many were saved from destruction. Anyway, congrats to the new owner!
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Just a comment about the 1955 DDO - one of the serious underbidders on this coin was texting me a story last night as he was bidding - it was the first "dream" coin he ever wanted. He paid $325 for one in 1983. It's AU and he still has it. (Looks better than AU from the image). Now he has more money than in 1983, imagine owning the best example out there (of one of the most famous U.S. coins).
If anyone finds a genuine 1958 DDO, please call me! (all of the fake/misattributed raw 1958 DDOs on eBay don't count).
A couple decades ago I chatted on the phone with Charles Ludvico as he had some errors for sale. Then I mentioned Breen book reference and asked if he was same person ? He confirmed he was and was retired Philly Mint employee.
Then we chatted about errors he had for sale as I really do not care to collect die varieties. Ludvico died years ago I assume as his off center struck seated coins did hit the market. Chas had a distinctive name, surely, I was not only collector to realize it might be him, written about in Breen years earlier.
I consider the 1958 DDO Cent on same level of shenanigans as 1913 Liberty 5c:
Dies were created on purpose then coins struck from them & then later sold by their Mint employees.
@renomedphys said:
How about the $600k spent on his 69-s DDO. And his 55 DDO went for over a quarter mil. Records that should stand the test of time
🤑
And this Nepalese foreign planchet cent sold for $200k! Incredible!
I personally don’t understand why this coin would be that special to command such a high dollar amount? It’s struck on a foreign planchet, $2500 and you should be maxed out at that point. Just because it’s aluminum?
Stewart knew exactly what he had. He loved the coin because he associated it with the Philly and Denver pieces, and he had fun bragging (tongue in cheek) about having the only 74-S Aluminum Cent. That said, I think he would be pleasantly surprised at the price realized.
And BTW, the piece was not struck on a foreign planchet. It was struck on a foreign coin.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Well... another one to add to the list when I get around to searching my 'hoard' of wheat cents... One never knows, number four could be in that gallon jar, or one of the zip locs alongside it. Cheers, RickO
@Cuprinkor said:
Three 1958 DDO Lincolns are known.
And it just so happens that the Philadelphia mint director (at that time) happened to have one in his estate.
Hmmmmm, . . . .. shades of midnight shenanigans?
I misspelled LUDOVICO when recalling my chat about 58 DDO 1c Philly Mint creator. I recall Sam Lukes selling 58 DDO in ads on consignment too.
"Sold for Over One-Million Dollars!
See close ups of a 1958 Doubled Die here: https://koinpro.tripod.com/Articles/1958DoubledDieCent.htm
This is one of two that I held in my hand at Errorama in 1985 and 1986. The owner, who was one of my customers for high-end errors kept telling me from the day he met me until the last time I talked to him years later, that he was going to have me handle his 1958 Doubled Dies but at the last minute he decided to sent them to Sam Lukes. I was more disappointed that the man misled me for a number of years rather than me not getting to handle the sale of the coins. But at least he was a very good customer! 🙂
Ken Potter
Author
Admin
It was sad that Charles Ludovico consigned them to Sam Lukes! That was the wrong way to sell those coins and I told him that for well over a decade."
Regarding the destruction of other 1958 DDO's at the mint, I've often wondered if any 69-S DDO's discovered at the SF mint were destroyed and never mentioned publically.
Then what was the point of posting? To silently stay that > @LindyS said:
Breen wrote he saw a roll of 58 DDO at a show. Roll owned by an ex 1958 Philly Mint employee. That owner sold two or three, 47 more lurking in his estate. Charles Ludvico's Shenanigans
@Walkerlover said:
This doesn’t make sense. Even though it’s super rare it’s still only a double die error penny , and not as dramatic as the 1955 double die. What great gold you can buy with a $1,000,000.
The key is that there are only 3 known and this is the finest.
Of course, we have no idea whether that's true. Personally, I believe that if it were, additional examples would have already surfaced by this time.
To avoid expressing an explicit negative opinion on the price. I've done that often enough.
Then what was the point of posting? To silently stay that > @LindyS said:
Breen wrote he saw a roll of 58 DDO at a show. Roll owned by an ex 1958 Philly Mint employee. That owner sold two or three, 47 more lurking in his estate. Charles Ludvico's Shenanigans
@Walkerlover said:
This doesn’t make sense. Even though it’s super rare it’s still only a double die error penny , and not as dramatic as the 1955 double die. What great gold you can buy with a $1,000,000.
The key is that there are only 3 known and this is the finest.
Of course, we have no idea whether that's true. Personally, I believe that if it were, additional examples would have already surfaced by this time.
To avoid expressing an explicit negative opinion on the price. I've done that often enough.
You could have done that much more easily by not replying at all. And let's face it, posting the way you did, amounted to expressing a negative opinion about price (again).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Cuprinkor said:
Regarding the destruction of other 1958 DDO's at the mint, I've often wondered if any 69-S DDO's discovered at the SF mint were destroyed and never mentioned publically.
The story may be apocryphal, but I have heard a mintage estimate for the 1955 DDO cents of 25,300 pieces based on their being discovered at the end of a shift. Someone on the floor made the decision not to scrap the entire day's production and released the coins into circulation.
The popularity of this glaring mistake had to be embarrassing to the Mint, and as a result I think they were far stricter when major varieties were discovered within their walls. This attitude would account for the rarity of the 1969-S and 1970-S doubled dies (though others like the 1972 still slipped through). It is also easy to believe that other varieties like this were successfully contained and never made known to the public.
The fact that the only examples of the 1958 DDO were found in the possession of people who worked in or had ties to the Mint at the time they would have been struck makes me think that they were not actually released into circulation. That doesn't make them any less collectible (or valuable), I am just saying I wouldn't bother running up the prices on OBW rolls trying to find another one.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I am avid collector of shenanigan errors & error coinage.
Shenanigan error coins are all legal to buy sell trade.
Unlike 1964 Peace, 1974 P & D 1c Aluminums, 1933 $20's which were all minted but not officially released. Thus those examples are illegal.
I think the 58 DDO 1c is a great variety, obviously worth every penny to the lucky winner.
@Cuprinkor said:
Regarding the destruction of other 1958 DDO's at the mint, I've often wondered if any 69-S DDO's discovered at the SF mint were destroyed and never mentioned publically.
The story may be apocryphal, but I have heard a mintage estimate for the 1955 DDO cents of 25,300 pieces based on their being discovered at the end of a shift. Someone on the floor made the decision not to scrap the entire day's production and released the coins into circulation.
The popularity of this glaring mistake had to be embarrassing to the Mint, and as a result I think they were far stricter when major varieties were discovered within their walls. This attitude would account for the rarity of the 1969-S and 1970-S doubled dies (though others like the 1972 still slipped through). It is also easy to believe that other varieties like this were successfully contained and never made known to the public.
The fact that the only examples of the 1958 DDO were found in the possession of people who worked in or had ties to the Mint at the time they would have been struck makes me think that they were not actually released into circulation. That doesn't make them any less collectible (or valuable), I am just saying I wouldn't bother running up the prices on OBW rolls trying to find another one.
@LindyS said:
Breen wrote he saw a roll of 58 DDO at a show. Roll owned by an ex 1958 Philly Mint employee. That owner sold two or three, 47 more lurking in his estate. Charles Ludvico's Shenanigans
@Walkerlover said:
This doesn’t make sense. Even though it’s super rare it’s still only a double die error penny , and not as dramatic as the 1955 double die. What great gold you can buy with a $1,000,000.
The key is that there are only 3 known and this is the finest.
Of course, Breen would be first on the list of people not to believe.
If someone were "creating" a double die Lincoln in 1958, why make it less dramatic than the recent 1955? For all that work, why not go all out and create something really notable?
I don't buy that these had to be surreptitiously created, and I don't buy that they are akin to the 1913 Liberty nickel.
However, I do think that it's possible that a mint employee tasked with destroying these could have saved a few.
@Cuprinkor said:
Three 1958 DDO Lincolns are known.
And it just so happens that the Philadelphia mint director (at that time) happened to have one in his estate.
Hmmmmm, . . . .. shades of midnight shenanigans?
I do not think this was made on purpose, rather I believe it was a genuine doubled die that was put into use, and the full production quarantined before release.
The primary evidence for this is the nature of the doubled die itself. The argument goes that if someone wanted to create this variety on purpose, they would have mimicked the 1955 DDO, which was a strong class I (rotated die) DD. However the 1958 is a class V (pivoted hub) DD, evidenced by strong doubling on just a small portion of the obverse. Further, the pivot point is around K-5, meaning the strongest doubling is in the mottoes, and little to none on the date. Neither of those are what you would expect if someone were making a bespoke variety to capitalize on the popularity of the 1955.
I should point out that my first exposure to this theory was in the Lincoln Cent Doubled Die book authored by John Wexler. He was given access to the two discovery coins and photographed them extensively in the book.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I don't buy that these had to be surreptitiously created, and I don't buy that they are akin to the 1913 Liberty nickel.
However, I do think that it's possible that a mint employee tasked with destroying these could have saved a few.
I think you're hitting the nail on the head. I have never, ever heard that any of these were found in the wild, Certainly not in mint bags and with some of them unexplainably destroyed by the finder?
No, a mint employee grabbed them before destruction at the Mint and smuggled them out with the rest of the lunch pail oddities. This is a much more plausible explanation
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
And all it has to do is grow one spot, and the game is over. If you don't think it can happen, store it in the wrong place with the temperatures going up and down with a bit of humidity.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I didnt know stewart that well, met him a couple times at PCGS Luncheon Years ago, we discussed a 26-s PCGS 65RD that was coming up for auction that evening, and another coin or two. The one thing I really hated when I heard that he had passed, is that he wont get to see how well his coins did in auction.
@RLSnapper said:
There are only 3 known now. I had no idea this coin existed. How much will an OBW roll of 1958 cents go for on Ebay now? I may have to buy me some. Sorta like a lottery ticket! I predict at least 3 more will surface by years end.
Same price as always if people are logical, I'd be willing to bet that these walked out of the Mint in someone's pocket, thermos, or shoe.
@jdimmick said:
I didnt know stewart that well, met him a couple times at PCGS Luncheon Years ago, we discussed a 26-s PCGS 65RD that was coming up for auction that evening, and another coin or two. The one thing I really hated when I heard that he had passed, is that he wont get to see how well his coins did in auction.
I didn't know Stewart well, just what he posted on the forums.
Is he the kind of person that would have liked to see his coins sell, or hold on to them to the end?
I never met Stewart either, but I like to think of him as holding to the very end. Which he did.
When I saw that his collection was to be sold, I figured his health had to be on the decline.
RIP
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@Walkerlover said:
This doesn’t make sense. Even though it’s super rare it’s still only a double die error penny , and not as dramatic as the 1955 double die. What great gold you can buy with a $1,000,000.
I stopped being surprised at through-the-ceiling prices after I read a while back about the 1938-S Mercury Dime selling for $364K.
Comments
If I had that amount of money to spend on coins would I have spent it on that one? I think you know the answer to that.
Then what was the point of posting? To silently stay that > @LindyS said:
Of course, we have no idea whether that's true. Personally, I believe that if it were, additional examples would have already surfaced by this time.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If they were actually found in bags, it’s extremely unlikely that anyone knows how many were saved from destruction. Anyway, congrats to the new owner!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Shazam!
Just a comment about the 1955 DDO - one of the serious underbidders on this coin was texting me a story last night as he was bidding - it was the first "dream" coin he ever wanted. He paid $325 for one in 1983. It's AU and he still has it. (Looks better than AU from the image). Now he has more money than in 1983, imagine owning the best example out there (of one of the most famous U.S. coins).
If anyone finds a genuine 1958 DDO, please call me! (all of the fake/misattributed raw 1958 DDOs on eBay don't count).
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
A couple decades ago I chatted on the phone with Charles Ludvico as he had some errors for sale. Then I mentioned Breen book reference and asked if he was same person ? He confirmed he was and was retired Philly Mint employee.
Then we chatted about errors he had for sale as I really do not care to collect die varieties. Ludvico died years ago I assume as his off center struck seated coins did hit the market. Chas had a distinctive name, surely, I was not only collector to realize it might be him, written about in Breen years earlier.
I consider the 1958 DDO Cent on same level of shenanigans as 1913 Liberty 5c:
Dies were created on purpose then coins struck from them & then later sold by their Mint employees.
Worth a million or millions, why not ?
Stewart knew exactly what he had. He loved the coin because he associated it with the Philly and Denver pieces, and he had fun bragging (tongue in cheek) about having the only 74-S Aluminum Cent. That said, I think he would be pleasantly surprised at the price realized.
And BTW, the piece was not struck on a foreign planchet. It was struck on a foreign coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Well... another one to add to the list when I get around to searching my 'hoard' of wheat cents... One never knows, number four could be in that gallon jar, or one of the zip locs alongside it. Cheers, RickO
Mintage of 3 and only 3 is my guess for the total number existing of this purposely made "rarity."
https://www.usmint.gov/learn/production-process/die-making
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I misspelled LUDOVICO when recalling my chat about 58 DDO 1c Philly Mint creator. I recall Sam Lukes selling 58 DDO in ads on consignment too.
"Sold for Over One-Million Dollars!
See close ups of a 1958 Doubled Die here: https://koinpro.tripod.com/Articles/1958DoubledDieCent.htm
This is one of two that I held in my hand at Errorama in 1985 and 1986. The owner, who was one of my customers for high-end errors kept telling me from the day he met me until the last time I talked to him years later, that he was going to have me handle his 1958 Doubled Dies but at the last minute he decided to sent them to Sam Lukes. I was more disappointed that the man misled me for a number of years rather than me not getting to handle the sale of the coins. But at least he was a very good customer! 🙂
Ken Potter
Author
Admin
It was sad that Charles Ludovico consigned them to Sam Lukes! That was the wrong way to sell those coins and I told him that for well over a decade."
From Ken Potter's fun coin site:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517126888733698
Regarding the destruction of other 1958 DDO's at the mint, I've often wondered if any 69-S DDO's discovered at the SF mint were destroyed and never mentioned publically.
To avoid expressing an explicit negative opinion on the price. I've done that often enough.
You could have done that much more easily by not replying at all. And let's face it, posting the way you did, amounted to expressing a negative opinion about price (again).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The story may be apocryphal, but I have heard a mintage estimate for the 1955 DDO cents of 25,300 pieces based on their being discovered at the end of a shift. Someone on the floor made the decision not to scrap the entire day's production and released the coins into circulation.
The popularity of this glaring mistake had to be embarrassing to the Mint, and as a result I think they were far stricter when major varieties were discovered within their walls. This attitude would account for the rarity of the 1969-S and 1970-S doubled dies (though others like the 1972 still slipped through). It is also easy to believe that other varieties like this were successfully contained and never made known to the public.
The fact that the only examples of the 1958 DDO were found in the possession of people who worked in or had ties to the Mint at the time they would have been struck makes me think that they were not actually released into circulation. That doesn't make them any less collectible (or valuable), I am just saying I wouldn't bother running up the prices on OBW rolls trying to find another one.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I am avid collector of shenanigan errors & error coinage.
Shenanigan error coins are all legal to buy sell trade.
Unlike 1964 Peace, 1974 P & D 1c Aluminums, 1933 $20's which were all minted but not officially released. Thus those examples are illegal.
I think the 58 DDO 1c is a great variety, obviously worth every penny to the lucky winner.
Goodness gracious and OH MY!!!
Already getting them.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I feel sorry for all the B and M coin dealers. Everyone will be calling with their own million-dollar 1958 pennies.
Of course, Breen would be first on the list of people not to believe.
Smitten with DBLCs.
If someone were "creating" a double die Lincoln in 1958, why make it less dramatic than the recent 1955? For all that work, why not go all out and create something really notable?
I don't buy that these had to be surreptitiously created, and I don't buy that they are akin to the 1913 Liberty nickel.
However, I do think that it's possible that a mint employee tasked with destroying these could have saved a few.
I do not think this was made on purpose, rather I believe it was a genuine doubled die that was put into use, and the full production quarantined before release.
The primary evidence for this is the nature of the doubled die itself. The argument goes that if someone wanted to create this variety on purpose, they would have mimicked the 1955 DDO, which was a strong class I (rotated die) DD. However the 1958 is a class V (pivoted hub) DD, evidenced by strong doubling on just a small portion of the obverse. Further, the pivot point is around K-5, meaning the strongest doubling is in the mottoes, and little to none on the date. Neither of those are what you would expect if someone were making a bespoke variety to capitalize on the popularity of the 1955.
I should point out that my first exposure to this theory was in the Lincoln Cent Doubled Die book authored by John Wexler. He was given access to the two discovery coins and photographed them extensively in the book.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I think you're hitting the nail on the head. I have never, ever heard that any of these were found in the wild, Certainly not in mint bags and with some of them unexplainably destroyed by the finder?
No, a mint employee grabbed them before destruction at the Mint and smuggled them out with the rest of the lunch pail oddities. This is a much more plausible explanation
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
And all it has to do is grow one spot, and the game is over. If you don't think it can happen, store it in the wrong place with the temperatures going up and down with a bit of humidity.
I didnt know stewart that well, met him a couple times at PCGS Luncheon Years ago, we discussed a 26-s PCGS 65RD that was coming up for auction that evening, and another coin or two. The one thing I really hated when I heard that he had passed, is that he wont get to see how well his coins did in auction.
Same price as always if people are logical, I'd be willing to bet that these walked out of the Mint in someone's pocket, thermos, or shoe.
A very cool coin regardless.
Collector, occasional seller
I didn't know Stewart well, just what he posted on the forums.
Is he the kind of person that would have liked to see his coins sell, or hold on to them to the end?
I never met Stewart either, but I like to think of him as holding to the very end. Which he did.
When I saw that his collection was to be sold, I figured his health had to be on the decline.
RIP
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Why is the date not doubled?
I stopped being surprised at through-the-ceiling prices after I read a while back about the 1938-S Mercury Dime selling for $364K.