Question about grading CC coins
Barberian
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Are CC seated Liberty halves and other coins graded a bit more leniently than period coins from other mints. Somehow from a coin book or discussion board, I have this notion that they're graded a bit more leniently because of something about how they're minted. However, I haven't noticed any difference in grading for CC coins. Do graders cut CC coins some slack in grading?
This WB12 grades VF35, IMO.
3 rim nicks away from Good
2
Comments
No.
I’ve seen numerous opinions that CC Morgan dollars tend to be graded somewhat more leniently, but I haven’t heard that about other types of CC coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have heard this also, from many Morgan collectors and dealers and from my own observations, I believe it is true.
I had a 1883 CC come back 64 and I was shocked - thought it was 62 tops
all my other coins got hammered - worse than expected… so that was my limited experience … just the one time
The grading services seem to be more tolerant of bag marks on CC Morgan dollars considering they were transported by wagon over very rough and bumpy roads.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I’ve seen more than a few CC Morgan dollars that got a grade push, and I’ve seen a few of the other coins that did also. The most common instances of over grading are for Mint State Morgan Dollars. You can find them properly graded so being picky is a good policy.
I have heard this theme a few times over the years. I put together a set of CC Morgans twenty
years ago, and do not recall encountering coins I considered over graded. I do not know what would justify this treatment, but the concept is frequently mentioned in recent years. We have all seen the occasional coin that seems less than the assigned grade. I have not noticed it to be more in the CC mint area than any other mint. Cheers, RickO
Now PCGS XF40 - looks like some slack was given to this CC half. I haven't seen a SLH with a weak E in Liberty grade by PCGS at EF40 until now.
The image looks like a scan to me, but the coin also looks like an EF to me, as well.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
First of all, it is a scan.
Really?! With the wear on the breast exceeding the blouse line, the wear on the thigh melding somewhat with the shield, and the weak LIBERTY and shield lines, this coin IMO, is a PCGS VF35 in terms of wear. The reverse shows weak claw joints but otherwise looks OK for EF40. The surfaces are pretty nice though with few marks. Does that give it a boost, in your opinion?
I'm eager to hear your opinion on why it looks EF40. It's an opportunity to improve my precision in grading. The TrueView will probably be posted tomorrow.
I was at 40 on the coin as well. Really nice, wholesome example. The biggest things for me are the detail on Liberty's head, and lack of wear on the eagles' wings, Basically, the design is pretty much intact, just flattened a bit from wear. Perfect XF40 imho.
I personally try not to get too bogged down in the minute details of the coin when grading. Step back, look at it from a whole, how does it feel?
Maybe I'm an idiot, I dunno.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I grade coins based upon overall "look" first and then, if I have to, go to various aspects of the design. My paradigm for grading may be similar to how PCGS does it because I take a quick (couple seconds?) look and come up with a grade and any additional time refines the grade.
For me, the wear pattern on Ms. Liberty's right leg (the leg to the viewer's left) doesn't extend in an appreciable manner up her thigh beyond the vertex of the shield and that gives the coin the feel of an EF vs. VF. The hair details immediately above her ear also appear to be 3D enough to be nicer than a VF. Whatever is going on with LIBERTY does not bother me at all given those images. The reverse also appears to be an EF. If the surfaces are nice, and I have no true idea since I am interpreting a scan, then the coin gets the benefit of the doubt, in my opinion. Regardless, the PCGS grade is a single data point and the difference between VF35 and EF40 can be a sliver.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The detail of Liberty's head is highly dependent upon the strike and correlates well with the strike characteristics of stars 7 and 8. This coin appears to be fairly well struck. The wings look EF to me as well, though grading is based primarily on the obverse.
That first impression is how I recognize EF45. I can tell almost immediately by how well the design "pops," particularly on the reverse.
For EF40, I check 4-5 points of wear: wear on head, wear on breast not extending beyond neckline, wear on thigh not melding into the shield, a strong LIBERTY and no notable shield line wear. All four have to be 'all there' to be PCGS EF40 as I interpret grading. Any failure to meet these 4 criteria equates to a VF35 unless the strike is poor.
Thanks @TomB and @DelawareDoons for your comments here. I really need these discussions as I've created my own grading criteria without input from others in the hobby.
That comes with a solid understanding of grading and exposure to many, many coins. I've seen this ability often in people in the environmental field identifying small fish while shocking streams. The "fish squeezers" know them so well that no matter how small the fish is, they can identify them properly at a glance. It's amazing to see such skills in action when they're netting dozens of small fish. It's just familiarity and lots of experience, and yet members of each specialty were amazed at the skills of others working on their specialties.
Just one more thing, JA immediately questioned the PCGS VF30 grade of a choice coin I own (below) simply because the E was not visible. It's as if he immediately disqualified the coin based upon one technicality. The wear on the reverse is low VF as well. I took that lesson seriously. Perhaps too much so.
I heard this before also, but not for Morgan's.
The early CC's dimes quarters and half dollars (1870-1874) were almost pure silver and they wore down quickly. So a different grading scale is used for the early CC's. I do not know about the later coins or other denominations.
No, there is no appreciable difference. I do not see CC dollars, or any CC coins, getting any more passes than any other mint.
bob
I've heard it and think I've seen it on many GSA Morgans. Always thought surface preservation took on a lesser role in grade vs luster, which is normally great. Plus for 95% graded know they are original since many came from the GSA release.
Thanks, guys, for your responses. I weigh your comments seriously because I'm looking for help with grading in this thread and in my submission grade threads. I'll need to do more research into grading to try to break away from the very technical, wear-centric approach I've had since a kid. I've lately become much more focused on surfaces after dealing with many PVC leachate-damaged, and other corroded coins, but haven't calibrated my thinking on this with the rest of the coin collector community. Maybe I never will and avoiding etched or corroded coins will remain a strong personal preference.
JA is more of a classic grader. Grading has certainly evolved quite a bit in the 35+ years since the advent of the TPG's. Not to say he's wrong, just that really isn't the standard the young bucks at the TPG's are using right now.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
To me, the 54-O has an obverse near VF35 except for LIBERTY, and a reverse near VF20. I'm changing my mind mid-thought about JA's assessment of this coin after seeing the reverse again. He made no comment about its general appearance. He seems strict about maintaining a wear standard rather than rewarding a coin for its appearance, which is what PCGS did here. I know this because PCGS personnel literally defended the grade for this coin and another coin on this board several years ago to someone who felt their recently graded coin was undergraded.
Here's the other coin, graded PCGS VF25. In this case, the reverse grades near VF35.
I don't know how grading has changed in terms of what TPG graders prioritize, but I've seen the changes in grade 'boundaries" in the SLH through the years.
In my experience, I believe that there is a sub-class of "Rarity Points" you could call "Scarce Mint Points." Though most often applied to C and D Mint gold, I think that a CC coin maybe half a point under the minimum for a grade is more likely to get the benefit of the doubt that a Philadelphia Mint coin. MOO.