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Dealer having trouble with ebay on authenticity issue

logger7logger7 Posts: 8,083 ✭✭✭✭✭

A dealer friend had ebay pull a Trade Dollar listing he was sure was authentic, right weight and other aspects, they pulled the listing. He called up their concierge desk/trust and safety people and they said there were two "experts" who said it was a fake. He's been a dealer for 45 years, knows what he's doing. Also he said that his sales dropped like a rock after this, that they changed their algorithms on his account. They said he could try to relist it in a few weeks.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They said the coin was a fake and he could try to relist it in a few weeks?

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    DeutscherGeistDeutscherGeist Posts: 2,990 ✭✭✭✭

    There is a lot here. We do not know if, in fact, eBay changed his algorithms. This is something new that eBay is getting involved in policing its sites on the authenticity of collectibles. It used to be where members of this board would share that they found a fake collectible and reported it to eBay in order to get it taken off.

    Maybe your dealer friend really believes that the Trade Dollar is not a fake, but he needs to take another look if eBay is using experts in spotting fakes. There maybe something he overlooked.

    If eBay states that it is a fake, why would they offer your dealer friend to relist in a few weeks?

    "So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve

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    tincuptincup Posts: 4,779 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:
    They said the coin was a fake and he could try to relist it in a few weeks?

    Probably can relist, now or in future. But if ebay altered his listing algorithms because of it, perhaps may still have less business. Not sure how ebay regulates who gets to see what items, etc.

    ----- kj
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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    what kind of listing algorithms does eBay have?

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    tincuptincup Posts: 4,779 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The algorithms are a mystery to me. I have done searches before... and an item does not show up. But if I go to a seller's additional items... sometimes the item I am searching for... is in that listing!! When I check my search spelling, etc., it would be correct... but item just never showed up during original search.

    So, they have formulas, etc., that regulate what shows up, and in what order, and to whom, etc. Can I tell you how they work? no.. and likewise cannot even prove they do that.

    But just like using a search engine on the internet... there are formulas and algorithms that hide or show the results you see.

    ----- kj
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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    what kind of listing algorithms does eBay have?

    Search algorithms not listing algorithms.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,083 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2023 2:04PM

    @Crusty said:
    Let’s see the coin in question

    I'll share it when he relists. He was so sure that it is not a fake, and he didn't want to spend money with Anacs on it, that they told him he could relist it if he is sure it is authentic.

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    eBay is weird. Yesterday I threw a bookmark bid on a lot. This morning when I signed on to my eBay screen name there was an email that said my bid was winning. Went to eBay and checked my bids and it said I was not bidding on anything

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    MS66MS66 Posts: 200 ✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @DeutscherGeist said:
    There is a lot here. We do not know if, in fact, eBay changed his algorithms. This is something new that eBay is getting involved in policing its sites on the authenticity of collectibles. It used to be where members of this board would share that they found a fake collectible and reported it to eBay in order to get it taken off.

    Maybe your dealer friend really believes that the Trade Dollar is not a fake, but he needs to take another look if eBay is using experts in spotting fakes. There maybe something he overlooked.

    If eBay states that it is a fake, why would they offer your dealer friend to relist in a few weeks?

    I wouldn’t assume from the original post that “eBay is getting involved in policing its sites on the authenticity of collectibles”. At this point, for all we know, the two “experts” who said the coin was fake were two people who took it upon themselves to report the listing as some of us here, do.

    Agreed. EBay isn't likely to have real experts on staff, when it's so much cheaper (as in free) to follow the advice of users who claim to be experts.

    Which opens the door very wide for abuse from competitors. I figure eBay gets false reports by the thousands every day.

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    eBay is weird. Yesterday I threw a bookmark bid on a lot. This morning when I signed on to my eBay screen name there was an email that said my bid was winning. Went to eBay and checked my bids and it said I was not bidding on anything

    refresh the page a couple times then bids will show up

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    DeutscherGeistDeutscherGeist Posts: 2,990 ✭✭✭✭

    @MS66 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeutscherGeist said:
    There is a lot here. We do not know if, in fact, eBay changed his algorithms. This is something new that eBay is getting involved in policing its sites on the authenticity of collectibles. It used to be where members of this board would share that they found a fake collectible and reported it to eBay in order to get it taken off.

    Maybe your dealer friend really believes that the Trade Dollar is not a fake, but he needs to take another look if eBay is using experts in spotting fakes. There maybe something he overlooked.

    If eBay states that it is a fake, why would they offer your dealer friend to relist in a few weeks?

    I wouldn’t assume from the original post that “eBay is getting involved in policing its sites on the authenticity of collectibles”. At this point, for all we know, the two “experts” who said the coin was fake were two people who took it upon themselves to report the listing as some of us here, do.

    Agreed. EBay isn't likely to have real experts on staff, when it's so much cheaper (as in free) to follow the advice of users who claim to be experts.

    Which opens the door very wide for abuse from competitors. I figure eBay gets false reports by the thousands every day.

    That makes sense. It just sounded like the OP meant the experts were on the eBay staff, but it is more likely the feedback they got from "experts" was actually from other eBayers.

    "So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve

    BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How does one know what my site's searching algorithm is and is it a + or a - or how is it rated? First I have ever heard of this 'algorithm' issue.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    No HeadlightsNo Headlights Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When you sell on a site where the people running it have almost no numismatic knowledge you run the risk of coming in contact with this kind of situation. good luck to your friend.

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    BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @No Headlights said:
    When you sell on a site where the people running it have almost no numismatic knowledge you run the risk of coming in contact with this kind of situation. good luck to your friend.

    I don't know quite what to say.

    Other sellers are out there selling gobs of junk and they rake him.

    It just doesn't "seem" fair.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It could be fake. There are many convincing Trade dollar fakes out there. Pics would help.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We need to see high-resolution pics of this coin. This coin may very well have been counterfeit.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jesbroken said:
    How does one know what my site's searching algorithm is and is it a + or a - or how is it rated? First I have ever heard of this 'algorithm' issue.
    Jim

    It's not your whole store. It's individual items.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2023 8:00AM

    @BuffaloIronTail said:

    @No Headlights said:
    When you sell on a site where the people running it have almost no numismatic knowledge you run the risk of coming in contact with this kind of situation. good luck to your friend.

    I don't know quite what to say.

    Other sellers are out there selling gobs of junk and they rake him.

    It just doesn't "seem" fair.

    Pete

    Everyone who does any significant selling on eBay will get listings pulled at some point. It's not always for fakes, but there are a lot of rules you can cross.

    And it remains possible that the trade dollar is fake. There are a lot of them out there. Any dealer who is not a specialist in a series can get fooled. I don't know a single dealer who doesn't have a collection of body bags from the TPG'S. I've even seen coins that more than one dealer had viewed come back as fake.

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    kazkaz Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's been months since I reported a fake Trade Dollar on eBay. I don't report them unless I'm sure they are fakes. First, though, I reach out to the seller about my concerns. It doesn't sound like the people reporting the coin messaged the seller first, which (if that's the case) I consider poor form. I find it difficult to accept that pulling a single listing would lead to eBay doing something like altering search algorithms that would affect sales.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2023 10:48AM

    @kaz said:
    It's been months since I reported a fake Trade Dollar on eBay. I don't report them unless I'm sure they are fakes. First, though, I reach out to the seller about my concerns. It doesn't sound like the people reporting the coin messaged the seller first, which (if that's the case) I consider poor form. I find it difficult to accept that pulling a single listing would lead to eBay doing something like altering search algorithms that would affect sales.

    Ebay suppresses items even if you don't have any black marks.

    We should conduct a poll. How many times have you seen a thread here wanting ebay to boot sellers for a fake or two?

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    kazkaz Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭✭✭

    jmlanzaf said: Ebay suppresses items even if you don't have any black marks.

    I guess I don't see how removing one item would lead to a large drop in sales. Did eBay force him to take down other items? I didn't infer that from the o.p.

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    fathomfathom Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is info missing here.

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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2023 9:18AM

    Not sure what reaction you want in this forum on this @logger7 ? Folks here could certainly give opinions on the "coin" if you included good images...

    I report a lot of bad stuff to eBay but only as another stated here earlier when I am sure it is.

    I have had countless 1881-CcC"Morgan" Morgan dollars reported and they still show up so so much for "algorithms" B) !

    Also, why did his sales drop? There is no notice to anyone but the seller the listing was removed, although I suppose folks bidding on it (if any) would see it gone, but not the reason.

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    AtcarrollAtcarroll Posts: 343 ✭✭✭

    @BuffaloIronTail said:

    @No Headlights said:
    When you sell on a site where the people running it have almost no numismatic knowledge you run the risk of coming in contact with this kind of situation. good luck to your friend.

    I don't know quite what to say.

    Other sellers are out there selling gobs of junk and they rake him.

    It just doesn't "seem" fair.

    Pete

    The world's like that though, if you expect fairness you'll be frequently disappointed. Better to expect unfairness and be as prepared as you can be to find a workaround.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @kaz said:
    jmlanzaf said: Ebay suppresses items even if you don't have any black marks.

    I guess I don't see how removing one item would lead to a large drop in sales. Did eBay force him to take down other items? I didn't infer that from the o.p.

    I have no idea what he's seeing. I'm just saying that search suppression is a fact of life on ebay.

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    oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are those on ebay that deal in fake coins.... they continuously post fakes - some get pulled, many get sold. Obviously their algorithms do not affect these dudes.... Cheers, RickO

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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Atcarroll said:

    @BuffaloIronTail said:

    @No Headlights said:
    When you sell on a site where the people running it have almost no numismatic knowledge you run the risk of coming in contact with this kind of situation. good luck to your friend.

    I don't know quite what to say.

    Other sellers are out there selling gobs of junk and they rake him.

    It just doesn't "seem" fair.

    Pete

    The world's like that though, if you expect fairness you'll be frequently disappointed. Better to expect unfairness and be as prepared as you can be to find a workaround.

    As a friend always says... Fair is something you go to in the summer. 😅

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,083 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What would be fair on listing items that may be counterfeits would be for a seller to be penalized when it becomes clear they were trying to palm off a fake on an unsuspecting customer. Also to discourage malicious, capricious or otherwise damaging claims on items that prove to be authentic, such claims should also suffer a reasonable penalty. The laws that came from Deuternomy 19 to mind. Counterfeiting historically had severe penalties, as well as false claims with intent to damage or interfere with lawful commerce. That's what some of our anti-trust laws are about.

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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm sorry, but I don't get it- cut off the hands of the guilty of trying to sell a known counterfeit or the tongues of the ones who "falsely reported it"? Your friend had a listing removed as counterfeit- do the due diligence and either stand by it or don't but get over it...

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,083 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:
    I'm sorry, but I don't get it- cut off the hands of the guilty of trying to sell a known counterfeit or the tongues of the ones who "falsely reported it"? Your friend had a listing removed as counterfeit- do the due diligence and either stand by it or don't but get over it...

    My point is that there should be reasonable remedies rather than have continued problems associated with people reporting stuff as counterfeit without any skin in the game for them, opportunity to resolve the issue by the seller or cost if they are listing fakes.

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    blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,459 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe it's a fake? We can sit here and speculate till the cows come home but without pictures we will never know. RGDS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well said @blitzdude ...

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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:

    @burfle23 said:
    I'm sorry, but I don't get it- cut off the hands of the guilty of trying to sell a known counterfeit or the tongues of the ones who "falsely reported it"? Your friend had a listing removed as counterfeit- do the due diligence and either stand by it or don't but get over it...

    My point is that there should be reasonable remedies rather than have continued problems associated with people reporting stuff as counterfeit without any skin in the game for them, opportunity to resolve the issue by the seller or cost if they are listing fakes.

    Just to be clear, when I report an item as fake the "skin I have in the game" is my reputation. And even then my report goes through a final say; I am not aware of anyone who haphazardly reports items having direct reporting to knock an item out by themselves...

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    Klif50Klif50 Posts: 663 ✭✭✭✭

    This dealer has nothing to lose by putting up good quality photos of the coin here on the sight. With a lot of expertise and knowledge he'll find out pretty quickly if he does in fact have something to worry about.

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    alefzeroalefzero Posts: 869 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Try listing a PCGS rattler or NGC no-line fatty there. Crusading Karens, who swear they are know-it-alls in certified coins, can claim they are not authentic holders and get them removed.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,083 ✭✭✭✭✭

    He said that for 3 weeks business was essentially non-existent. And Ebay told him that if there is even a 1% chance of a fake that they flag they will pull it. He said that suddenly business went back to normal, and that it isn't worth the risk so sent it to Anacs with some other coins.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    He said that for 3 weeks business was essentially non-existent. And Ebay told him that if there is even a 1% chance of a fake that they flag they will pull it. He said that suddenly business went back to normal, and that it isn't worth the risk so sent it to Anacs with some other coins.

    What risk would there be in submitting the coin to ANACS?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,083 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @logger7 said:
    He said that for 3 weeks business was essentially non-existent. And Ebay told him that if there is even a 1% chance of a fake that they flag they will pull it. He said that suddenly business went back to normal, and that it isn't worth the risk so sent it to Anacs with some other coins.

    What risk would there be in submitting the coin to ANACS?

    That's what he decided to do. Also I asked for him to forward the images so I can share.

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    3 weeks around Christmas/New Year is slower for many people on eBay

    so can the guy email you the pics he used so you can post here?

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @logger7 said:
    He said that for 3 weeks business was essentially non-existent. And Ebay told him that if there is even a 1% chance of a fake that they flag they will pull it. He said that suddenly business went back to normal, and that it isn't worth the risk so sent it to Anacs with some other coins.

    What risk would there be in submitting the coin to ANACS?

    That's what he decided to do. Also I asked for him to forward the images so I can share.

    Thank you and I apologize for having misread your post.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    3 weeks around Christmas/New Year is slower for many people on eBay

    so can the guy email you the pics he used so you can post here?

    After Christmas maybe. Before Christmas, I can barely keep up with shipping.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2023 4:40PM

    @burfle23 said:

    @logger7 said:

    @burfle23 said:
    I'm sorry, but I don't get it- cut off the hands of the guilty of trying to sell a known counterfeit or the tongues of the ones who "falsely reported it"? Your friend had a listing removed as counterfeit- do the due diligence and either stand by it or don't but get over it...

    My point is that there should be reasonable remedies rather than have continued problems associated with people reporting stuff as counterfeit without any skin in the game for them, opportunity to resolve the issue by the seller or cost if they are listing fakes.

    Just to be clear, when I report an item as fake the "skin I have in the game" is my reputation. And even then my report goes through a final say; I am not aware of anyone who haphazardly reports items having direct reporting to knock an item out by themselves...

    Yes, but you've got to admit that anyone can report an item and since the report is anonymous the only threat to your reputation is if ebay keeps a record of mistaken reports. Do they? Would they even know there was a mistaken report?

    That said, reporting fakes is a part time job for some people around here. And I'm not sure that there was a false report here until I see the coin. So I think it is premature to scream about unfairness.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,083 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Apparently ebay has a team of experts to identify fakes, or at least that's what the dealer said they told him.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,083 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @davewesen said:
    3 weeks around Christmas/New Year is slower for many people on eBay

    so can the guy email you the pics he used so you can post here?

    After Christmas maybe. Before Christmas, I can barely keep up with shipping.

    Robert said he had 3 transactions in 3 weeks and then today shipped out 14 orders.

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