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The case for or against super graded coins as slabbed by the top grading services........

BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

I would like comments from some of our members here as to the desireablity of coins like this one. This coin really
appears to be overgraded to me. A 67 would be a stretch. Comments? The coin is past mid die state and the appearance
is somewhat mushy. But a coin like this will probably go for over 5 grand. Is it worth it?



Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
«1

Comments

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Without a CAC I would be very cautious. Overgraded is a common reason for a coin not passing.

  • Sure there wasn't a mess up in the packaging department and it was supposed to be MS63. ;)

    Member of LSCC, EAC, Fly-In Club, BCCS
    Life member of ANA
  • This is definitely not something I would be buying as an MS68 example. As the OP stated very late die state, and way too many marks IMHO.

    Member of LSCC, EAC, Fly-In Club, BCCS
    Life member of ANA
  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Comments? Hard to say- need a bigger picture.

  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2023 2:37AM

    Based upon what you're saying here, no.

    (I wish I would follow that advice here more often myself.)

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • AvocetAvocet Posts: 226 ✭✭✭✭

    Based on these images, I share your concern. Some surface marks are evident. The grade here may be generous.

  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This coin is currently in a Heritage auction and has been bid up to $1900 which is $2400 when you add in the "juice".
    Someone is about to get scwewd as Elmer Fudd would say, but maybe they have a humongeous budget for this type
    of stuff and do not care. I will post the final totals for this coin when auction is over. I have had ms65 pieces of this date
    that looked better than this IMO.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here it the description of the coin from the auction: 1913 5C Type One MS68 NGC. The preservation of this piece is exceptional, producing luminous amber-gold luster that is devoid of abrasions and provides excellent eye appeal. The dies are worn, and metal flow lines are apparent in the fields and design recesses, but central strike sharpness is still pleasing. Census: 42 in 68 (4 in 68+, 4 in 68★ ), 0 finer (11/22).(Registry values: N1793)

    Coin Index Numbers: (NGC ID# 22PW, PCGS# 3915)

    Weight: 5.00 grams

    Metal: 75% Copper, 25% Nickel

    View Certification Details from NGC

    My comment UGH!

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2023 4:40AM

    This coin is currently in a Heritage auction and has been bid up to $1900 which is $2400 when you add in the "juice".
    Someone is about to get scwewd as Elmer Fudd would say, but maybe they have a humongeous budget for this type
    of stuff and do not care. I will post the final totals for this coin when auction is over. I have had ms65 pieces of this date
    that looked better than this IMO.

    Grading is a matter of opinion. However, the amount of "juice" is a fact and in this case, it's 20%, which would be $380 on a $1900 bid, for a total of $2280 (not $2400). There's no good reason to distort the facts.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,018 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BUFFNIXX said:
    I would like comments from some of our members here as to the desireablity of coins like this one. This coin really
    appears to be overgraded to me. A 67 would be a stretch. Comments? The coin is past mid die state and the appearance
    is somewhat mushy. But a coin like this will probably go for over 5 grand. Is it worth it?

    Why do you say "But a coin like this will probably go for over 5 grand"?

    Here are the last two sold by Heritage:
    Sunday, December 18, 2022 at $3,960.00
    Sunday, May 8, 2022 at $4,080.00

    Is the coin market really that hot? ;)

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • VetterVetter Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For such a common date it would be a big pass for me. There are much better looking coins for this date in lower grades out there.

    Members I have done business with:
    Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is a nice Buff nickel.... If this were a GTG thread, I would have said a 67.....Cheers, RickO

  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @BUFFNIXX said:
    I would like comments from some of our members here as to the desireablity of coins like this one. This coin really
    appears to be overgraded to me. A 67 would be a stretch. Comments? The coin is past mid die state and the appearance
    is somewhat mushy. But a coin like this will probably go for over 5 grand. Is it worth it?

    Why do you say "But a coin like this will probably go for over 5 grand"?

    Here are the last two sold by Heritage:
    Sunday, December 18, 2022 at $3,960.00
    Sunday, May 8, 2022 at $4,080.00

    Is the coin market really that hot? ;)

    !my error, i should have checked recent prices before I posted!

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This coin now up to bid of $2600 with the juice up to $3120.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    imo, coins like this, especially non-eds coins, cannot be properly assessed from pics, unless they are masterful ones.

    the full-size pics are great but i cannot read much of a difference between 66 to 68 from them and at each grade increase, there really needs to be some more and more special to warrant the grade, although i think my grading is still a few years back and has been struggling to catch up to numbers like this, for coins like this and i've seen A LOT.

    since weak strikes hold back coins grades, i know they have on my morgans and walkers, then mid to late die states, should also be held back especially when it affects eye appeal, like in this case but i know these debates have gone back and forth for years here. guess it boils down to preference and also, this is not a pcgs coin.

    i'm not picking but does anyone know what happened to the left of U in unum?

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • 1Bufffan1Bufffan Posts: 619 ✭✭✭

    OUCH, more than I would pay even for an upgrade, like other have said I've seen better strikes in "lower" graded coins with a lot better Eye appeal, I think the Grader got this one wrong! Material flow and die wear are too much for me. I'll Pass.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,069 ✭✭✭✭✭

    NGC and HA believe it is in the ballpart for the very elusive 68 grade on older coins. I wouldn't second guess them; but it may be a B- or C coin.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,837 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the luster and eye appeal must be awesome +++

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I saw this coin when it first came up in Heritage and I was disappointed to see it in a 68 holder. Is it worth it? To me, no. I would much prefer a hammered EDS coin in 66. I admit that the fields look pristine on the ops posted coin; however, I thought that to garner such a grade, it would require a very strong strike and an EDS coin with little or no die erosion.

    Tom

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,752 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BUFFNIXX said:
    I would like comments from some of our members here as to the desireablity of coins like this one. This coin really
    appears to be overgraded to me. A 67 would be a stretch. Comments? The coin is past mid die state and the appearance
    is somewhat mushy. But a coin like this will probably go for over 5 grand. Is it worth it?

    It may be worth it to someone, my guess is that nobody here has seen the coin in hand including myself. I'll bet that it is a real luster bomb. I have included the last two years of auction data included in the PCGS auction search for this date and grade. At the current price it is a bargain for a registry player.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hope whoever buys this coin doesn't try to cross it because if they do, they will lose a lot of money. This coin is a flat out end of the road overgrade.


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
  • FrankHFrankH Posts: 773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I want the $10,500 one.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,018 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @telephoto1 said:
    I hope whoever buys this coin doesn't try to cross it because if they do, they will lose a lot of money. This coin is a flat out end of the road overgrade.

    I'm not commenting on any particular coin. However, owners of coins can attempt to cross them, without risking "a lot of money", by including a minimum grade on the submission invoice. It sounds as if you were talking about cracking coins out and submitting them un-graded, but that type of risk is unnecessary.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,752 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FrankH said:
    I want the $10,500 one.

    You sure you wouldn't prefer the one for 76K? ;)

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's unfortunate that a grading and value discussion couldn't have waited until the auction was over. It seems kind of cheesy to be badmouthing somebody's coin and soliciting comments regarding its lack of desirability while the auction is running.

    When you (in general, not directed at any specific poster) go to sell your coins, would you be happy to find them being talked about the way this one is? "But that would never happen. My coins are nicer!"? Yeah, I'm sure that must be so.

    IMO, of course. YMMV.

  • FrankHFrankH Posts: 773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinbuf said:

    @FrankH said:
    I want the $10,500 one.

    You sure you wouldn't prefer the one for 76K? ;)

    Shoot! Missed that. I guess I'll go for a circ.

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColoradoCoinGuy said:
    Sure there wasn't a mess up in the packaging department and it was supposed to be MS63. ;)

    Are you sure that it would make a 63?

    I don't know what to say.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • planetsteveplanetsteve Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭✭

    Honest question: does die state impact PCGS grading? I can easily understand a lower grade for a coin with a weak strike. But a worn die and a weak strike are not exactly the same thing.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @planetsteve said:
    Honest question: does die state impact PCGS grading? I can easily understand a lower grade for a coin with a weak strike. But a worn die and a weak strike are not exactly the same thing.

    PCGS Grading Standards here: https://www.pcgs.com/grades

    mention strike strength/weakness but do not say anything about new/worn dies. Suppose you have an exceptionally strong strike with worn dies...

  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:
    It's unfortunate that a grading and value discussion couldn't have waited until the auction was over. It seems kind of cheesy to be badmouthing somebody's coin and soliciting comments regarding its lack of desirability while the auction is running.

    When you (in general, not directed at any specific poster) go to sell your coins, would you be happy to find them being talked about the way this one is? "But that would never happen. My coins are nicer!"? Yeah, I'm sure that must be so.

    IMO, of course. YMMV.

    MasonG
    You are correct and I should have waited until the auction was over. My sincere appoloies.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,353 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are Jefferson nickels up for sale like this with weak strikes, die erosion, marky on ebay. Regardless, there are buyers out there for whatever reason they have that compel them to want them. But that's where they,re at with their collections, can't blame them. Some I doubt they even care what the coin looks like and we've seen this played out many times..... but maybe, they just don't have much choice. Jefferson nickels are just as bad with poor strikes. But I have stuck it out for the better part of 32 years and have located examples for every date with at least a full detailed strike, many with an EDS strike and I'm proud of it!
    This 1953-S with its crisp strike is really something to behold if you're lucky enough to ever come across one like it.

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    imo, coins like this, especially non-eds coins, cannot be properly assessed from pics, unless they are masterful ones.

    the full-size pics are great but i cannot read much of a difference between 66 to 68 from them and at each grade increase, there really needs to be some more and more special to warrant the grade, although i think my grading is still a few years back and has been struggling to catch up to numbers like this, for coins like this and i've seen A LOT.

    since weak strikes hold back coins grades, i know they have on my morgans and walkers, then mid to late die states, should also be held back especially when it affects eye appeal, like in this case but i know these debates have gone back and forth for years here. guess it boils down to preference and also, this is not a pcgs coin.

    i'm not picking but does anyone know what happened to the left of U in unum?

    It might be on the plastic. There's also a spot at 7:00 on the reverse that looks like it could be a scuff. If it's on the coin, might be a rather large die chip.

    I don't know if I like it as a 68. But it has character and there is a lot going on .

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @planetsteve said:
    Honest question: does die state impact PCGS grading? I can easily understand a lower grade for a coin with a weak strike. But a worn die and a weak strike are not exactly the same thing.

    PCGS Grading Standards here: https://www.pcgs.com/grades

    mention strike strength/weakness but do not say anything about new/worn dies. Suppose you have an exceptionally strong strike with worn dies...

    Excellent question and one I was wondering about myself. Certainly, it impacts my evaluation (and valuation) of almost any coin.

    Tom

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,329 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @planetsteve said:
    Honest question: does die state impact PCGS grading? I can easily understand a lower grade for a coin with a weak strike. But a worn die and a weak strike are not exactly the same thing.

    This touches on one of my biggest problems with grading today; there are very few gradations of strike quality. Not only are slightly weak or noticeably weak strikes given a pass but die quality plays little role in overall grade. This works fine for most collectors but not as well for modern coin collectors because these things are more important to most. So we have anomalies like FS nickels without great strikes from somewhat worn dies grading higher than hammered strikes from brand new dies just because they are slightly cleaner.

    This does set up opportunities for collectors though to cherry pick attributes which are very rare for a date. Many collectors are capitalizing on such things but conversely a few collectors are probably overpaying for coins that are more common than they believe. Of course everyone has his own opinion and his own standards. To each his own.

    Tempus fugit.
  • MS 63 it’s really a shame that even when graded by a well respected company grades like this just makes you second-guess every purchase .This not 68 no way in hell poor strike on both sides walk away 100%

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think saying this coin should grade 63 is being unreasonable. There are very few marks and this coin is not poorly struck, yes it could be better but it is not bad. This is coming from someone who values strike quality over almost any other characteristic. I bet the luster on this coin really stands out.
    Given just the pictures I would have guessed a 66 or 67. Is it overgraded? Maybe, but not to that extent.

    My suggestion would be to stick to the 65-66 grade range for these since they are still very nice coins and relatively affordable.

    Here are 2 65/CAC coins and 1 66/CAC click this line to expand ![](https://d1htnxwo4o0jhw.cloudfront.net/pcgs/cert/40893006/medium/205097265.jpg?v=1673461745662 "") ![](https://d1htnxwo4o0jhw.cloudfront.net/pcgs/cert/40893008/medium/205097275.jpg?v=1673461745662 "") ![](https://d1htnxwo4o0jhw.cloudfront.net/pcgs/cert/41807359/medium/214073920.jpg?v=1673461745662 "")

    Collector, occasional seller

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,474 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From the preservation standpoint, the coin in the OP is very well preserved. From the minting aspect, it's mediocre to poor. The coin was struck with well worn dies which are showing a lot of fatigue. To me an MS-68 has to be superior in every aspect. The defects need to be so minor that they are very hard to find, even with a strong glass.

    The strike has be perfect. That means that there are some date and mint mark combinations that could never grade MS-68. To me, there is no such thing as a 1922 Plain Cent or a 1937-D three legged Buffalo Nickel in MS-68. It does not exist because all of the coins had to be defective to qualify for the die state.

    Since the OP is a 1913 Type I Buffalo Nickel, which was saved in large quantities with well made coins extant, there is no way that piece can be an MS-68.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ChevyroseChevyrose Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    Not a 68 to me. Probably not a 68 to pcgs either. I’d say it’s a 66

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It strikes me as peculiar that so many are turned off by the evident die fatigue. There are plenty of threads in the archives which show coins with severe clash and die cracks which members seem to hold in high regard. Other Buffalo Nickels are often found struck from over-used dies and nobody seems to mind about the weak detail. Is it just the as struck high grade of the OP coin that bothers everyone??

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,474 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2023 1:29PM

    @Maywood said:
    It strikes me as peculiar that so many are turned off by the evident die fatigue. There are plenty of threads in the archives which show coins with severe clash and die cracks which members seem to hold in high regard. Other Buffalo Nickels are often found struck from over-used dies and nobody seems to mind about the weak detail. Is it just the as struck high grade of the OP coin that bothers everyone??

    When you get up to the MS-68 grade, and the kind of prices dealers ask for Buffalo Nickels in that grade, all of that stuff matters. The PCGS "Coin Facts" page says an MS-68 grade 1913 Type I Buffalo Nickel is worth $9,750. An MS-67+ is worth $2,150. Are you ready for fork over another $7,600 for half a point when the coin is not well made?

    Let's put this way. Would you want the OP coin or this one for the same price? The photo is from "Coin Facts." This is a PCGS MS-68.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • jomjom Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd take Bill's example, every day of the week and twice on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. Not even close.

    As to the OP, they can grade it whatever they want that doesn't mean I'm interested. That coin is a pass for me even if it was graded MS65 since the date is rather common (ie many to choose from).

    jom

  • erscoloerscolo Posts: 483 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Grading is subjective, no matter the source.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    Let's put this way. Would you want the OP coin or this one for the same price?

    Are they both being offered for sale at the same price?

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,474 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erscolo said:
    Grading is subjective, no matter the source.

    It's subjective until the time comes that you are looking to sell something. Then you can't ignore the issue. I learned through the school of hard knocks when I was a YN. I'm still learning. When it comes to pricing and grading, you turn into a "tough guy." If you don't, you're going to get hit hard when you want your money out of a coin.

    What I want to hear from a decline to buy is, "It's nice, but I can't use it." I don't want hear, "it's not even close to the grade."

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,837 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2023 2:20PM

    @davewesen said:
    the luster and eye appeal must be awesome +++

    I checked my notes and did see it at FUN show. Heritage had many fine auction coins for preview. The luster and eye appeal were great. I wouldn't buy it compared to some 67's I have seen. The coolest coins during viewing I saw were some Booker T. Washington halves, although I did not view many Morgans.

    PS. If you feel you can grade well from pictures, you are wrong.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,474 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are they both being offered for sale at the same price?

    Probably not, but given the big jump in price between MS-67 and 68, there is a lot of wiggle room to offer "a bargain." So there is lots of room to take advantage of the difference.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,474 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PS. If you feel you can grade well from pictures, you are wrong.

    You had best learn how to interpret photos. Given the small number of major shows and the cost of getting to them, you have to work with what you have on the Internet. Obviously photographs are your main source.

    I have been burnt on a few photos in the major auctions, but I have learned from each experience.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @planetsteve said:
    Honest question: does die state impact PCGS grading? I can easily understand a lower grade for a coin with a weak strike. But a worn die and a weak strike are not exactly the same thing.

    PCGS Grading Standards here: https://www.pcgs.com/grades

    mention strike strength/weakness but do not say anything about new/worn dies. Suppose you have an exceptionally strong strike with worn dies...

    At some point, they become a bit conflated. It's hard to fully strike up design features that have been worn away. And significant die wear has to change the metal flow.

    So far, all we know is that the coin is worth $3100 since two people have pushed the price up to that level.> @BillJones said:

    @Maywood said:
    It strikes me as peculiar that so many are turned off by the evident die fatigue. There are plenty of threads in the archives which show coins with severe clash and die cracks which members seem to hold in high regard. Other Buffalo Nickels are often found struck from over-used dies and nobody seems to mind about the weak detail. Is it just the as struck high grade of the OP coin that bothers everyone??

    When you get up to the MS-68 grade, and the kind of prices dealers ask for Buffalo Nickels in that grade, all of that stuff matters. The PCGS "Coin Facts" page says an MS-68 grade 1913 Type I Buffalo Nickel is worth $9,750. An MS-67+ is worth $2,150. Are you ready for fork over another $7,600 for half a point when the coin is not well made?

    Let's put this way. Would you want the OP coin or this one for the same price? The photo is from "Coin Facts." This is a PCGS MS-68.

    Or you could write the definitive book on Buffalo varieties that includes this late die state. Then it becomes top pop of a scarce variety and it's worth even more.

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