Rockwell test
Romrob1843rr
Posts: 38 ✭
Would like to know value of cent with Rockwell test mark on it. Some say one will never be found in circulation. I found one!
0
Romrob1843rr
Posts: 38 ✭
Comments
Pictures?
Welcome to the club.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Not sure. I think it needs to look more like this.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
From my quick research....I had never heard of thIs test mark..it looks like you may have a winner. As to getting it authenticated I would look to ANACS as the TPG..they certify a wide range of interesting errors and the like. As to value..others will chime in. Welcome aboard....BTW..don't post coin with miniature crop circles. Inside joke!
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/692766/question-regarding-a-coins-rockwell-hardness
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I have never heard of any such thing. What is the source of your information.
That makes two of us.
Is the mark raised on the coin? Was the die subjected to the test?
I don't understand why a cent subjected to a hardness test would be with anything but a cent. After all, I could do a Rockwell test on my pocket change right now.
Rockwell Test pieces are real, and incredibly rare. Here are 4 pages from the best error coin book from 1975-1976, "Modern Mint Mistakes". I think many old timers will agree with me that it's the best error book ever printed.
This is a destructive test since it involves piercing the surface of the coin leaving a small crater. This test damages a coin and reduces its value.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I wonder if I could find a punch that would leave a mark like that?
I believe the opposite of your conclusion is correct. Like @MWallace indicated, a Rockwell test piece is incredibly rare. Which increases it's value.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
These are pictures of different kinds of marks using different pressures to test the hardness.
This sounds rather ridiculous. As @jmlanzaf says, anyone(with access to the machine or college campus materials lab) can perform a Rockwell hardness test on a coin.
Collector, occasional seller
Ah I see, it was the blank that was tested... that's a bit different
Collector, occasional seller
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say PMD.
Just a gouge in-between the columns of the memorial. Rockwell test performed and then the memorial just so happened to be struck over it in perfect placement. And then it inexplicably leaves the Mint and find its way to you!
I'm going with Occam's Razor.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Rockwell tests were done on the dies, not the coins. A coin struck from one of these dies will have a raised lump where the die was tested. A coin that has a dimple punched into it is just a damaged coin.
It's done on the blank before the coin is struck. That would make it impossible to simulate on a struck coin. Maybe @FredWeinberg will chime in. I'm sure he knows more about this than all of us put together. I've collected errors for nearly 50 years now and have never seen one in hand.
I could see the use of testing a blank or two out of a production batch to test the hardness.
Collector, occasional seller
The mark is below surface, identical to I believe some pictures on pcgs . The test was preformed on the planchette before coin finished. Someone said they did not think one would ever be found in circulation!> @MWallace said:
$300-$400 value in 1976 and figure inflation and 2022 value is $2,009.00
The hardness test done before striking, would not have the same appearance post strike. The pages posted by @MWallace indicates some post testing may be performed. If so, one could research the size of the Rockwell tester contact point, then measure the indent on the cent. That correlation could serve as identification or refutation of the indent. Cheers, RickO
'Dots' are known on some series. Morgan Dollars are one of them, with a number of 'dot' VAMs attributed in a number of different dates/mints. I have heard a theory that these are from a Rockwell hardness test being performed on the dies. Here's a 1943-D steel cent with a dot next to the mintmark, and I wonder if this could be from a hardness test on that obverse die. I have found two examples now.
So the test impact point on one side of a planchet caused a corresponding dimple on the other side? How often would this test be done as a quality control method? Interesting, for sure. Peace Roy
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Interesting subject. I was able to find and buy a copy of the catalog on ebay and it should be here in a few days. The seller has a lot of the older errors catalogs and magazines and even has a group of Fred's personal papers (maybe from the auction of his collection?).
No dimples on the other side of coin. To namvet69
The test was patented in Feb of 1919.
No dimples on the other side of coin. To namvet69
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Annealed copper of a blank planchet is much softer than a strain hardened struck copper coin. Any Rockwell test in that location on an annealed blank would be obliterated during the deformation of the strike. It could be done on a finished coin, but would be difficult to distinguish from PMD.
I have annealed a lot of copper and silver. Copper becomes very soft with annealing, and with strain (work) hardening becomes hard and stiff. The inelasticity of strained hardened copper causes vibration when tapped, creating the ringing sound in a dropped pre-1982 cent.
I raised this copper vase in 1994 from a flat 12x12" sheet of 16 gauge copper, no seams from soldering, just repeated annealing, forging, and planishing to the desired shape - like the silversmiths used to do. I did not trim the four corners and they formed into the petals. It rings like a bell when tapped (slab for scale):
I thought an expert was a member here, cannot tell as I have not received a confirmation as to the real Rockwell test mark coin I have!
With some certainty you have a one cent coin that someone drilled... You can tell because of the consistency of the mark. It has no deviation from the circular mark.. It was made by a small drill bit.. IMHO in attempt to mimic this hardness test or for shiggles. I have no doubt that your coin is not one of these hardness tested coins.
In the other images that show actual test you will see there is no conical form to them... whereas yours has a clear cone shape. Its cute and created a great conversation but it is not a mint hardness tested cent.
I believe you are wrong because it looks identical to other images of the tests.
I saw the Rockwell test operation at the West Point mint in 2009
Dave Camire and I were told it was done on the blanks or planchet only – not on the dies – and that the striking pressure of 65 to 85 + tons would obliterate the small test mark done on the blank or planchet – which I agree because it was so small – those photos of the indented circular areas on the coins in this thread are much too large, Based on what we saw at the West Point Mint that day.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I don’t believe West Point Mint struck Lincoln cents in 2009 when you were there, and they used a higher pressure when striking of the other coins that they minted, no zinc planchets.
I am assuming that a zinc cent would only be using the pressure of only 35 metric tons and not the tonnage you specified because of the softness of the zinc and therefore would not be obliterated as you described. The cent I have the test mark on is identical to pictures of Lincoln cent previously posted.
I work in the steel industry where Rockwell hardness testers are common. If these coins have any premium, I'll be retiring soon.
That small crater adds no value to a coin since it's damage and can be easily duplicated.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Someone’s post, not my research.
Mr. Weinberg: Possibly the West Point mint does not Rockwell test the dies however numerous posts says otherwise of other mints.
I think is disgusting that if someone finds a rare error that people in coins for 40 or 50 years do not have or have not found all they get is super negative comments and that someone used a drill and made this supposedly error coin. They cannot admit that they are wrong even that someone stated one would never be found in circulation! After I get this sent and certified we will see what happens. 2022 price for inflation $$2,009.00.
Go for it. Be sure to report back to us either way.
You can’t expect someone to admit they’re wrong, before proving them wrong. I can imagine there might be a premium if the test was indeed performed on the dies, but if it’s just on the planchet I’m not sure why that would increase the value. As others have said, I could do that on my own pocket change.
Please do report back to us with the results either way, after the coin is certified as such. You have to realize, it’s a regular occurrence on this forum for a newcomer to claim they have found an ultra rare error, only to be told otherwise. 99% of them are wrong. You may well be in the 1%, but well need to see proof.
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Well, the truth hurts doesn't it? 😆
You get an honest assessment from THE authority on error coinage, Fred Weinberg. He tells you he was THERE to witness some Rockwell testing done, and this isn't it. And you of course, correct him citing of, all things, internet posts! Disgusting, as you say.
Any post on this thread that doesn't agree with this ridiculous notion that you've presented gets an LOL. There's probably a reason you've heard one would never be found in circulation.
A dimple on your coin is not going to get you rich today. Sorry
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Not trying to get rich, don’t need it, the truth hurts that supposedly experts cannot accept the fact that one has been found. He also stated dies are not Rockwell tested, wrong, lots more tonnage of pressure, wrong, cents are pressed at around 40 tons, not 65-80 tons as would be for other coins and would be too much for a zinc cent of softer material. I’m sorry you have been brainwashed into agreeing with the comment that “ one would never be found in circulation “.
The first 2/3 of this thread was discussing the testing of planchets, in which case the anomaly would be incuse, but then the OP switched to discussing testing of the dies, in which case the anomaly would be raised. So which is it?
Again, please refer to my previous post above. No one is going to “accept” anything that has not yet been proven. Fred is a well respected and knowledgeable error coin specialist. Being a new member with 18 posts, you are not going to get anyone on here to consign your opinion until you you can prove that it is correct. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I look forward to seeing the results of your submission, see ya in a couple months.
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If the die had a depression from a test like this, there'd be millions of coins with raised dots on them.
No, Mr. Weinberg started the testing of die comments. He stated dies were not tested, I previously did not state that until afterwards. Read the above comments!
I never stated I had one with raised dots, this was done on planchet, incluse as in below surface! MasonG