Home U.S. Coin Forum
Options

Opinions on this 1874 Indian Head Cent?

ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

I’m considering this one. Give me your honest opinions on color, originality, strike, etc…
Unfortunately no true views. :|
This is the best I can do with the phone, however these pictures capture the color perfectly and indeed the reverse is slightly darker.

Comments

  • Options
    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,769 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The obv is nice with nice color for the RB designation. I do not love the rev especially the dark streaks under CENT. Maybe not a deal killer but not a coin I would pay a premium for, others might.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • Options
    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like the color and the details... But I'm wondering what's going on with the rev shield? Is that just an anomaly of the picture?

  • Options
    lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My thoughts too... there's some sort of blob on the reverse shield...

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • Options
    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2023 5:53PM

    image

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spyglassdesign said:
    I like the color and the details... But I'm wondering what's going on with the rev shield? Is that just an anomaly of the picture?

    It’s a die chip. A glob of metal.

  • Options
    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lkenefic said:
    My thoughts too... there's some sort of blob on the reverse shield...

    It looks like extra metal and mint-made to me.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld It has some serious die clashing on the obverse. It should be easy to identify in the Snow books. 👍

  • Options
    lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @lkenefic said:
    My thoughts too... there's some sort of blob on the reverse shield...

    It looks like extra metal and mint-made to me.

    Now that I see the zoomed in images, I agree... I was struggling with zooming in on my laptop.

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Options
    privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 3,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like it, it shows its natural age.

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc

  • Options
    ChevyroseChevyrose Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    Seems like you have some doubts. In that case pass on it

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is the best I can do for now.
    It also has a die chip on the 3rd feather….

  • Options
    TomBTomB Posts: 20,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I love it and I expected to love it when I noticed who started the thread. You have great coins.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    I love it and I expected to love it when I noticed who started the thread. You have great coins.

    Thank you. 👍 :)

  • Options
    OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the coin to be correctly graded as a 65 but undergraded as RB, look much more RD to me. The blob on the shield would likely have occurred at the mint, but after the coin was struck. But the blob makes the coin less desirable to almost everyone including CAC.

  • Options
    yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,599 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2023 3:24AM

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    I think the coin to be correctly graded as a 65 but undergraded as RB, look much more RD to me. The blob on the shield would likely have occurred at the mint, but after the coin was struck. But the blob makes the coin less desirable to almost everyone including CAC.

    How could it occur after the coin was struck?
    A simpler explanation is that it's a die gouge or die pit.
    I've seen very similar blobs in the shield on half dime die varieties.

  • Options
    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    I think the coin to be correctly graded as a 65 but undergraded as RB, look much more RD to me. The blob on the shield would likely have occurred at the mint, but after the coin was struck. But the blob makes the coin less desirable to almost everyone including CAC.

    While the coin exhibits a significant amount of “RD” color, there appears to be enough mellowing to validate the “RB” designation.

    Additionally, the “blob” would have occurred at the time the coin was struck and I don’t think most buyers or CAC would penalize the coin for it.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Options
    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The coin is a nice IHC.... Interesting die chip on the shield... Seems like a disturbance on the third feather from the top... might be a lighting effect. Not seeing the die clash referred to... Cheers, RickO

  • Options
    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The obverse also has a blob in the feather above BE. There is a small dark spot below the 7. The reverse has some dark lines below CE, are they fingerprints?

    If it is a rare variety that is not priced in, why are you asking or have you already bought it?

  • Options
    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s been my experience that older Indian Cents that show this much red with R&B color designation have been dipped. It’s not a total bad thing if the coin looks credible and is stable. Usually I like R&B coins to have a bit more brown and red that looks natural and more subdued.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Options
    PizzamanPizzaman Posts: 226 ✭✭✭

    I'm in love!

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    The obverse also has a blob in the feather above BE. There is a small dark spot below the 7. The reverse has some dark lines below CE, are they fingerprints?

    If it is a rare variety that is not priced in, why are you asking or have you already bought it?

    Haven’t purchased yet. I have it for the weekend on approval. I don’t believe there to be fingerprints per se, but there are streaks of toning like you see normally. Kinda looks a little like wood grain toning under a glass.

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well I just checked the Snow books. Nothing even remotely similar is shown for 1874, so either it’s a rare variety not yet discovered, or a nobody cares coin. :D

    It’s still a pretty example, and I will likely be buying it, it’s pretty cool. And it would be another date down for my potential set...

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looking in CoinFacts I found a 66BN that’s the same die. It is in fact in the die:

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I found another, 65+ RD
    Same obv die, but not reverse?

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Combing through coin facts, those are the only two I can find. It’s obviously a die variety, I’d be interested to hear more feedback from the IHC collectors!

  • Options
    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There’s no way I would opine on originality of old copper from a cell phone picture. From the images provided, I see nothing that jumps out to question the coin’s grade. It very well may have been dipped as BJ points out. This wouldn’t bother me as long as the underlying coin is stable. I’d feel a bit better about it if we’re in an older holder to attest to the stability, however, as there are some coin doctors that produce very deceptive work at least initially until the coin turns. As is, I see nothing to condemn the coin.

  • Options
    OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the cud on the shield is considered to be a mint error rather than a variety. From the pics I cannot tell if it recessed or not?

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    There’s no way I would opine on originality of old copper from a cell phone picture. From the images provided, I see nothing that jumps out to question the coin’s grade. It very well may have been dipped as BJ points out. This wouldn’t bother me as long as the underlying coin is stable. I’d feel a bit better about it if we’re in an older holder to attest to the stability, however, as there are some coin doctors that produce very deceptive work at least initially until the coin turns. As is, I see nothing to condemn the coin.

    Good points made, if it were a full red in a new holder, I wouldn’t touch it. But being red-brown, it has some room to darken, and still retain an accurate designation.

    I will only buy red in an old holder a minimum of 10 years old.

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    I think the cud on the shield is considered to be a mint error rather than a variety. From the pics I cannot tell if it recessed or not?

    Both are raised lumps on the obverse and reverse. I’ve been studying it under a loupe today. It has a great strike!

  • Options
    OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If RD is worth three times +/- the value of an RB. I have a hard time finding much brown on this particular coin. But the RD color is a little off probably because it was dipped at some point in time, as are most RD copper coins that are RD.

  • Options
    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    If RD is worth three times +/- the value of an RB. I have a hard time finding much brown on this particular coin. But the RD color is a little off probably because it was dipped at some point in time, as are most RD copper coins that are RD.

    There’s no requirement that a copper coin exhibit any “BN”, to receive a “RB”, as opposed to a “RD“ designation. Many undipped examples display mellowed “RD” color and no “BN” color, whatsoever.
    From PCGS: “Red (RD): PCGS designates Red for copper coins that grade MS60 or better and show 95% or more of their original mint red color.”

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Options
    OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld Thanks for the clarification on the brown requirement for RB coins. I did not know that as I don't collect RD coins, at least intentionally. I collect mostly Proofs that are nicely toned. In my IHC Proof Basic registry set, Paha Sapa Indians, I have only one RD coin in that set, but it has a little real red color which is not mint orange.

    I suggested to the OP that there may be great financial potential buying a coin that really has no brown and trying to get it graded RD. I can also say that I have never purchased a RAW Red IHC that was not called questionable color (.91). But if I cracked the OP's 1874 and submitted it I would bet the grade would be QC (.91). He would have to try that through Reconsideration.

  • Options
    WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m not crazy about it. It is mediocre at best. It was likely dipped with MS 70 or a similar product. JMHO.

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • Options
    AvocetAvocet Posts: 226 ✭✭✭✭

    This is a nice-looking IHC, and good work on establishing the die variety as an explanation for the feather/shield anomalies. The streaks on the obverse might represent a subtle wood-grain toning / alloy mixing effect, and the overall color is very nice. I believe the decision as to whether to go for this coin rests with the price and especially with your personal feelings regarding the obverse streaks. As we have seen in this forum before, the appeal of wood-grain toning is highly personal; you will get various opinions depending on taste. Go for it if you don't mind the obverse streaks and the price is right.

    I agree with other comments on this post regarding your collection-- you have great coins!! Thanks for sharing....

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks everybody for the posts! 👍

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I may look into sending this to Rick Snow for an Eagle Eye sticker...

    I would safely assume that if it passes that the color is not an issue. That’s my only fear, the rest looks solid to me.

  • Options
    lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,215 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like it. The faint reverse streaks don’t bother me and “The Blob” is cool. I’d welcome it in my own collection if the price was right and I needed an IHC type coin, which I do not.

    Bear in mind that I’m looking at it via my phone, outdoors on a sunny day, which makes my small screen a bit harder to see. If I remember, I’ll look at it on my big desktop monitor later.


    Explore collections of lordmarcovan on CollecOnline, management, safe-keeping, sharing and valuation solution for art piece and collectibles.
  • Options
    ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2023 4:05PM

    I think it is a fine looking Indian Cent and would have no problem owning it. I thought I was critical but judging from some of the comments I guess I am not. To each their own. I have never messed with coins and chemicals so I have no idea what they look like after being treated. That coin looks original to my eye.

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My only concern at this point is the color. Whether it’s dipped or not.

  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    After more thought and some comparisons, I’ve decided to pass on this one. I appreciate everyone’s feedback!

    I’m giving strong consideration to only buying EERC sticker or CAC coins, at least for red and/or higher grade coins….

    It would definitely add to my peace of mind with the Indian Head Cent purchases.

  • Options
    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerfan said:
    I’m not crazy about it. It is mediocre at best. It was likely dipped with MS 70 or a similar product. JMHO.

    But where’s the blue or purple? 😈

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file