Cleaned...Dipped...Market Acceptable...I have questions

MidLifeCrisis

Are there times when PCGS will straight-grade a cleaned or dipped coin?

Are there times when CAC will give a green or gold sticker to a cleaned or dipped coin?

gumby1234

Im sure they have straight graded plenty of lightly dipped coins

hfjacinto

Lots of straight graded coins are dipped and many are CAC

lilolme

@MidLifeCrisis said:
Are there times when PCGS will straight-grade a cleaned or dipped coin?

Are there times when CAC will give a green or gold sticker to a cleaned or dipped coin?

Yes.
Yes.
The question of when there is too much cleaning or dipping to get a No on one or more of the noted questions is the more difficult and controversial question.

BryceM

First of all, how can you prove a coin was dipped? Plenty of Peace dollars have made more than a single "trip to the bucket." As long as the patina wasn't real heavy and the coin is still lustrous, sure they'll slab them. JA will often bean them too. On many silver issues, much of what is considered "attractive" toning is secondary toning.

Assuming that we're talking about cleaning apart from dipping, sure, tons of them get slabbed. It's pretty difficult to know about heavily circulated early copper, and poorly manufactured, low-grade rarities are often forgiven for issues that would immediately deep-six a more modern coin. As for stickering, the rate would be much lower, but certainly not zero. I doubt they knowingly sticker coins they consider to be cleaned. It's not a binary decision. It's a continuum, and I imagine all graders probably let some things go that are ever so slightly on the "good" side of the fence.

BTW, the TPGs don't reject a coin for cleaning, they reject it for "improper" cleaning.

MidLifeCrisis

@BryceM said:
BTW, the TPGs don't reject a coin for cleaning, they reject it for "improper" cleaning.

I liked your entire post, but this is a particularly telling statement.

PerryHall

The major grading services clean coins. Of course, they call it a "conservation" service because it sounds better. Some coins need to be cleaned to save them especially if there is a substance on the coin such as active PVC that is eating into the coin's surface.

jmlanzaf

@MidLifeCrisis said:

@BryceM said:
BTW, the TPGs don't reject a coin for cleaning, they reject it for "improper" cleaning.

I liked your entire post, but this is a particularly telling statement.

Particularly telling what? Genuine question.

There's nothing inherently wrong with cleaning a coin. The advice exists because so many people take it to the extreme. Cleaning is part of curating or conservation. The point is not to alter the coin surface in the process. Acetone, for example, won't touch the metal. Silver dip will touch the metal bit if done quickly and rinsed properly only removes an atomically thin layer that isn't noticeable to the eye.

The Mona Lisa has been cleaned numerous times. It's expected as part of preservation.

Onastone

That's all fine and dandy. A properly cleaned coin looks good, an improperly cleaned coin not so good. I think the red flag is when your graded coin has CLEANED on the label.

@MidLifeCrisis said:
Are there times when PCGS will straight-grade a cleaned or dipped coin?

By "straight-grade" do you mean CLEANED does not appear on the label?

ricko

The answers to the OP are yes and yes. Dipping can be done in a manner that does not significantly affect the coin surface. It can also be overdone so that it removes luster. In general, the services accept properly done dipping. Cheers, RickO

coastaljerseyguy

Wasn't there a post 10+ years ago where someone was going to take a generic MS Morgan and dip it again and again and post photos to reflect how the luster changed and at what stage it was noticeable to the eye? Or am I imaging things. Getting old and memory is not as good as it once was.

coinkat

I see a significant difference between a cleaned and dipped coin. A cleaned coin will have an unnatural look that is sterile with surfaces that evidence a process that simply should not have been undertaken. And under such circumstances, the coin should be graded for what it is without a pass. What is market acceptable for a cleaned coin should be fairly clear, but there are those instances where it can be overlooked or the first impression may simply leave the impression that what has happened to the coin is not so bad.

Dipping is a far greater issue and problem. One can understand that sometimes conservation is needed for various reasons. Regrettably a little dip here... there and everywhere to enhance a coin to obtain a higher grade but more often than not, the opposite result is the end result. There are no mulligans with respect to dipping a coin.

I seriously doubt CAC would approve of a cleaning based on how that term should be applied under the vast majority of circumstances. With a dip, it really depends on the end result.

spyglassdesign

The hard part in my experience is finding that line and distinguishing that of market acceptable cleaning/preservation/conservation. I have a trade dollar that NGC believes is cleaned, but when I look at it, it seems market acceptable to me as it's not distracting or ugly at all (I sold it after all with full disclosure of NGC opinion). It was a very attractive coin imo, and may have been a borderline for the tpg whether to straight grade or not.

And unfortunately, grading has a lot of subjectivity built in. I've heard of many stories of people getting body bagged coins, cracking out and getting straight. So there is no hard set line between market acceptable and not when it comes to cleaning. But as others have pointed out, it depends on the type of cleaning and severity.

To that end, cleaning a coin with a wire brush is never OK! But a dip? As others said it depends.