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Minor Doubling on CBH Edge Lettering

jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 714 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited December 24, 2022 10:32PM in U.S. Coin Forum

After studying a small collection of capped bust halves, I noticed doubling and tripling on the edge lettering (two example 1814's of different marriages pictured below, with an 1834 with the triple shelf). The doubling seems to happen on CBHs repeatedly, as I found it on different marriages from all decades.

Basic machine "shelf" doubling doesn't make sense because the Castaing machine simply squeezes the edge of the coin between the bar dies, so there isn't any swift, firm strike like there would be to stamp the obverse and reverse. It seems obvious that the coins weren't run through the machine multiple times on a regular basis, so standard "ran through the machine twice" doubling does not sound like the answer. Maybe the effect was on the bar dies themselves. What can possibly cause split serifs (take a look at the A's) and shelf-like features on the edge lettering? Any opinions appreciated.

Edited for clarification.

Coin 1:

Coin 2:

Coin 1:

Coin 2:

Coin 2:

Coin 2:

Coin 1:

Coin 3 (triple shelf):

Coin 1:

Coin 2:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

Comments

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great eye @jacrispies Fabulous mint anomaly. I have never even looked close at any I had for that. Very cool. Thank you for sharing.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2022 10:29PM

    Took an extra trip through the casting machine it seems. Cool.

    @habaraca is one of the resident experts on the topic.

    BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.

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    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Pnies20 said:
    Took an extra trip through the casting machine it seems. Cool.

    @habaraca is one of the resident experts on the topic.

    This was my original hunch - but it would seem more likely that the edge letters wouldn't have been even close if it was an extra trip? Or was there some consistency to the placement of the letters in relation to the devices?

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,681 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting! :o

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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 714 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    I find this type of doubling or tripling to be fabulous, but I cannot recall what the predominant theory is as to its cause. Regardless, your photography of it is fantastic.

    Thank you for the compliment!

    @Pnies20 said:
    Took an extra trip through the casting machine it seems. Cool.

    @habaraca is one of the resident experts on the topic.

    This is what running through the Castaing twice looks like!

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree. This is not a second pass through the Castaing machine. That would be more like the above, with a significant distance between letters. Also like the below 1831 O.103.

    I do not know what caused it but perhaps it was more like the profile doubling we see with bust halves of the 1813's and the like. Slop in the bolts securing the dies. Loose bar dies in this case.

    Great images, @jacrispies! Thanks for sharing.
    Lance.

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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wanted a better view of the machine and I found this schematic type diagram. I can see a few places for slop in the system as lkeigwin noted. Also would consider that the planchet is out of round some and potential slippage. Also if when being cranked could it get stuck or difficult to turn and crank backed up and then back through the sticking point. Or a certain point in the cranking that is tougher to crank due to leverage and stop and restart after re-gripping the crank. Just some thoughts because I actually don't know.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jacrispies ... Excellent pictures. My guess is that some type of movement during the manual process would cause such effects. As I said, just a guess, I have never seen the process actually being performed. Cheers, RickO

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    Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    @jacrispies ... Excellent pictures. My guess is that some type of movement during the manual process would cause such effects. As I said, just a guess, I have never seen the process actually being performed. Cheers, RickO

    What he said! 😃

    BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.

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    Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,670 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Might it be that the castain mechanism was put in reverse and then forward before coin was ejected. IMO. Makes sense to me. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder how long it took to do 1,039,075 1814 Capped Bust Halves and how many machines were involved. I would also love it if CoinFacts placed photos of the edge of the coins with lettering. Would be a great addition and immense help if they did so.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i really don't see why there needs to be some predetermination to the amount of spread or depth of the lettering from the castaiing machine. for all intensive purposes, it isn't much different than having some die striking variations, just on the edge.

    part of the reason the letters look funky when the spread is so close is really just like the obv/rev being struck more than once and having some inconsistency in the available metal for any one given recessed spot on the die, leading to some very visually interesting results or in this case, the positive lettering on whatever part actually had the characters.

    we see the results all over the presidential series. variations in depth, quantity, spread, orientation etc.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Love the diagram of the machine..
    Got me thinking about the dies, we have the station die and the sliding die. Do they both impress lettering or is one just a backer?
    If both dies have lettering on them then maybe there could be doubling once it's cranked past a half rotation??
    🤯

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    NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,767 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is a British description of an edge lettering machine that was published in the United States in March of 1792, and illustrated by Robert Scot:

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭

    After reading this I just had to pull the 2 lettered edge coins I have and only notice this phenomenon on one of the two coins, and only on a couple of the letters. Almost like a stutter of sorts.

    Fun thread! Thanks for sharing!

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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 714 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jayPem Both bar dies have letters on them. One die has the words FIFTY CENTS OR, and the other has HALF A DOLLAR *.

    @Nysoto Thank you for that neat reference, that was a fantastic read. Where did you find it?

    @spyglassdesign Just curious, what are the dates and varieties of your coins that did and did not have the edge lettering phenomenon? I will start keeping record of what dates and varieties show it and which do not.

    This seems like a good research topic to confirm possible hypotheses. I say the likely circumstance was the bar dies were loose. It still seems strange that the small amount of slippage could create such clean steps. This is when I wish I had a Castaing machine to run tests on! When I return to my collection at the beginning of January, I shall measure the thickness of the edge letters to see the variance between coins. When I am done, my eyes will surely be sore. :)

    Note: the triple stepped coin that I showed was the same coin as the doubled edge lettering posted later in the thread. Only one bar die was misaligned when ran through again and it appears that the other die was "close enough". Or maybe one die wasn't installed, so they had to run it through again and it only doubled half the inscription.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,729 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not two separate trips through, but probably a "double-pump" without fully ejecting the coin before sending it back through in the other direction. That's my guess.

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    NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,767 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2023 5:34AM

    The edge lettering machines are early versions of rack and pinion gearing. The gears had coarse pitch, as fine pitch with close tolerances would bind - the gear engineering and machining technology of the time was not advanced enough to fabricate precision gears. This is shown in the picture provided by Dennis Cooper of a German edge lettering machine of that time period, which has coarse rack teeth.

    The loose tolerances of the edge machines would allow some play during the planchet rotation that could cause doubling. With gravity ejecting, I think some of the planchets might stick to the dies and not drop, the mechanism would be reversed and drawn back, causing letter doubling (as others have said on this thread).

    The Russ Logan auction (on NNP?) had many examples of double and triple edge lettering including flip over doubling. Another common anomaly is overlapping lettering. This example from my collection came from the Logan auction. My guess is that it did not eject and was drawn back, causing the doubling. The gear backlash would also come into play when the action is reversed and could have some effect on how close the doubling is to the first strike.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 714 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's cool, thanks for sharing!

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2023 1:48PM

    lkeigin posted a link to a SD early half dollar error auction. (i may have seen it or another one some time ago)

    just perusing the various coins, one by one, a bit cumbersome but quite enjoyable and stumbled across this little gem:

    1. 1810 O-108a. Edge error. This coin has the "flattened rim spots" that Overton refers to, best seen at 12:00 on the obverse, but also at 6:00. There is a clear "belly line" on the edge in the flattened area below "81" of "1810", showing that the Castaing machine did not plump up the rim on the coin at this point. Purchased from Sheridan Downey in January, 1994.

    imageimage

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 714 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2023 2:37PM

    @LanceNewmanOCC That is called a guido. They are fairly common, I see them quite frequently. That 1810 has a slightly more dramatic guido but still can be found with patience of that size.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    habaracahabaraca Posts: 1,964 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One with FULL Belly Line... she was never run thru the castaing machine.



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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 714 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @habaraca That is super neat! Can you add obverse and reverse photos? I am curious of the effect with striking the peripheral devices. Thanks for sharing!

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,729 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For folks wondering what a Castaing machine might look like in use, below is a YouTube video provided by the ANA Money Museum to show one in action-

    https://youtu.be/cLIlTetETG0

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    habaracahabaraca Posts: 1,964 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jacrispies said:
    @habaraca That is super neat! Can you add obverse and reverse photos? I am curious of the effect with striking the peripheral devices. Thanks for sharing!


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    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 714 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @habaraca Thanks. There seems to he no obvious peripheral weakness. The reverse edge looks sharper than usual, but that may be normal...

    Anyway, lovely coin!

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @habaraca said:
    One with FULL Belly Line... she was never run thru the castaing machine.



    I had not heard of this one before. But it does make sense that some would miss the lettering and be dropped into the bucket so to say. I wonder if this was a midnight minting (just joking - from the other threads). :)

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

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