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Reposting thread. Need Help on wether to upgrade this MS 67 Lincoln to

WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭
edited December 22, 2022 7:06PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I recently bought this 1939 MS 67 RD Lincoln. I subsequently submitted the coin to CAC and received a green sticker, with the comment from JA that if he could he would approve it for a plus grade but that he couldn’t guarantee what will happen with the new graders at CACG in the future.
My question is it is worth the expense and time to try for an upgrade at either PCGS or CACG. Please give me your best advice. Thanks


give me your best advice. Coin posted.

![](https://us.v-

cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/m5/ikxcikrut4cl.jpeg "")





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    LazybonesLazybones Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What's the upside if it gets bumped up a grade?

    USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.

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    NickelMikeNickelMike Posts: 190 ✭✭✭

    I agree with gumby. Looks good as is.

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    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It has the nice "blasty" look that PCGS favors for a +, unknown at this point what CACG will like or look for in a +. Financially speaking it doubles the sales price most of the time so perhaps worth the risk, depends on what you want the coin for, keeper or resale.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
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    CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another factor to consider is that it’s in a pre-prong holder so the color is stable. As a collector, I’d leave it as is.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
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    raysrays Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can’t pretend to tell the difference between an MS67 Red and a MS67+ Red in a coin of which literally thousands were saved in gem uncirculated.

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,127 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The shoulder abrasions would prevent a + grade, yet obviously would defer to CAC.

    peacockcoins

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    Chatter on the jacket on Lincoln's right should would eliminate it from being a plus coin to me.
    I used to do reconsideration submissions along with first base grading for PCGS at the MOS & Live grading events before PCGS & I parted ways. The shoulder would definitely be an area I would focus on when assessing a Lincoln Cent for high grades along with the strike on the "O" of One on the reverse. I doubt CACG will give it a plus once I give them solid reasons why it does not deserve the plus. However, anything is possible. I have seen mistakes made by grading services before after giving my opinion then having the coin bypass me in the grading room while at PCGS. I am sure similar events will happen at CACG.

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    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2022 5:44AM

    @JohnBCoins said:
    Chatter on the jacket on Lincoln's right should would eliminate it from being a plus coin to me.
    I used to do reconsideration submissions along with first base grading for PCGS at the MOS & Live grading events before PCGS & I parted ways. The shoulder would definitely be an area I would focus on when assessing a Lincoln Cent for high grades along with the strike on the "O" of One on the reverse. I doubt CACG will give it a plus once I give them solid reasons why it does not deserve the plus. However, anything is possible. I have seen mistakes made by grading services before after giving my opinion then having the coin bypass me in the grading room while at PCGS. I am sure similar events will happen at CACG.

    Hello is this John Butler from the CACG. Thanks for your feedback. I do see the chatter on Lincoln’s shoulder. But in hand the chatter is very minimal and not distracting. I think my I phone photo is exaggerating the extent of the contact marks. I do agree though on the reverse there is very slight softness on that strike area.

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    1Mike11Mike1 Posts: 4,414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like it as is.

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I doubt it will upgrade.... I would keep it as is. Now, if it had scored a gold bean, well that would be different. Not worth putting more money into that very nice cent. Cheers, RickO

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    airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 21,910 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does the note mention the coin specifically (as in its serial number)? If so, if you want to sell, include the note and you get the best of both worlds. No new slab or fees, and the benefit of the higher grade. The only downside is with the registry, but I don’t personally care about that aspect.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
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    MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice coin. Leave it as is.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,318 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Don't believe I would dare the shipping industry to lose it. The benefit is not there, in my opinion. As Jeremy said, if the note includes the coin ID you have a great reference for a sale.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice MS67RD.

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    erscoloerscolo Posts: 499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is a beautiful coin, accept and cherish it for what it is.

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2022 5:55AM

    Ok, as I often do, I’m taking the minority position, and disagreeing with the majority above.

    1. Looking at GC Coin Auction Archive (I would guess other auction results shown on PCGS Auction Prices Realized won’t differ too much) shows the two recent sales of 1939 Lincoln’s with CAC stickers graded MS67RD by PCGS sold for roughly $191 - $203 including the b.p.
    2. That same source shows the three recent sales of 67+RD with CAC stickers graded by PCGS sold from $592 - $664.
    3. The above difference is quite significant.
    4. One can submit to PCGS for Reconsideration. If it doesn’t upgrade, it remains in the same holder. That can be done now at PCGS for the “risk” of the grading fee. Yes, roundtrip postage and the handling fee are added too (but if additional “merit worthy” coins are added to the same submission, that fixed cost is then spread among those additional coins). It sounds like the risk is minimized based upon the well-respected opinion of JA, who unlike us, actually saw the coin in hand!!!
    5. Instead, you can wait a month or two to when CACG is open for business and accepting crossover submissions. Again, on their submission form indicate to cross only at 67+RD. Just like with PCGS, CACG will leave it in the existing holder if it doesn’t upgrade.
    6. FOUR important separate notes 1) CACG will NOT be charging a 1% “Guarantee” fee of the new higher value ON TOP OF the grading fee if it does successfully upgrade, 2) CACG has already said that when coins graded by NGC and PCGS with CAC stickers are submitted for cross, coins that CACG deems are “A” coins WILL cross at a plus for that whole grade, 3) JA says that in his opinion roughly 25% of CAC stickered coins are “A” coins (and therefore will cross with a plus), and 4) As already noted above, JA says that in his opinion this is an “A” coin.

    If this was my coin, I’d absolutely risk the costs for the potential much greater value if you succeed!

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2022 11:44PM

    @Walkerlover said:
    I recently bought this 1939 MS 67 RD Lincoln. I subsequently submitted the coin to CAC and received a green sticker, with the comment from JA that if he could he would approve it for a plus grade but that he couldn’t guarantee what will happen with the new graders at CACG in the future.

    The only downside you have is that PCGS backed the red when that was graded. I would say it has too many planchet flaws not stuck through the shoulder to + and you lose the older holder. Take some good photos, and if it comes back a 67RD CAC will sticker it again. If it comes back a 67+ they will sticker it again. 68RD you lose the sticker but you have a 68RD - It will cost some money and time. I have like 30 CAC 67rd' graded well before +. I leave them alone .

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2022 5:12AM

    @Clackamas1 said:
    The only downside you have is that PCGS backed the red when that was graded. I would say it has too many planchet flaws not stuck through the shoulder to + and you lose the older holder. Take some good photos, and if it comes back a 67RD CAC will sticker it again. If it comes back a 67+ they will sticker it again. 68RD you lose the sticker but you have a 68RD - It will cost some money and time. I have like 30 CAC 67rd' graded well before +. I leave them alone .

    The coin is already 67RD. The coin already has a CAC sticker. While I agree the color suffix is not guaranteed over time, JA JUST saw this coin, and said it was an “A” coin for the grade. So in his opinion, it’s still at least 95% Red (and based on the photos, I don’t think the color is in question at all). As noted by the OP and by me in my reply above, in JA’s well respected opinion, the coin DOES merit a plus, AND he saw the coin in hand!

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭

    @Clackamas1 said:

    @Walkerlover said:
    I recently bought this 1939 MS 67 RD Lincoln. I subsequently submitted the coin to CAC and received a green sticker, with the comment from JA that if he could he would approve it for a plus grade but that he couldn’t guarantee what will happen with the new graders at CACG in the future.

    The only downside you have is that PCGS backed the red when that was graded. I would say it has too many planchet flaws not stuck through the shoulder to + and you lose the older holder. Take some good photos, and if it comes back a 67RD CAC will sticker it again. If it comes back a 67+ they will sticker it again. 68RD you lose the sticker but you have a 68RD - It will cost some money and time. I have like 30 CAC 67rd' graded well before +. I leave them alone .

    The color is the least of my problems Lol. Color is so bright copper red as it is untoned and pristine from being in an original roll in that Omaha Bank Hoard.

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    tcollectstcollects Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭

    @erscolo said:
    It is a beautiful coin, accept and cherish it for what it is.

    agreed

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    yspsalesyspsales Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JohnBCoins said:
    Chatter on the jacket on Lincoln's right should would eliminate it from being a plus coin to me.
    I used to do reconsideration submissions along with first base grading for PCGS at the MOS & Live grading events before PCGS & I parted ways. The shoulder would definitely be an area I would focus on when assessing a Lincoln Cent for high grades along with the strike on the "O" of One on the reverse. I doubt CACG will give it a plus once I give them solid reasons why it does not deserve the plus. However, anything is possible. I have seen mistakes made by grading services before after giving my opinion then having the coin bypass me in the grading room while at PCGS. I am sure similar events will happen at CACG.

    As a hobbyist looking to improve his grading skills, would love to know more about how a pro goes about analyzing a coin. You experience and opinion is appreciated.

    BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out

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    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    The shoulder abrasions would prevent a + grade, yet obviously would defer to CAC.

    Is it possible that what is perceived as chatter on the shoulder is actually a planchet defect rather than pmm damage? After all the coin seems well preserved from its original roll. Just asking as I am far from an expert in this area

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    Jzyskowski1Jzyskowski1 Posts: 6,651 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I personally would leave it.
    But as this is a very personal choice if you can justify the expense and don’t mind losing an older school holder, then absolutely change it. 🤔

    🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶

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    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:

    @braddick said:
    The shoulder abrasions would prevent a + grade, yet obviously would defer to CAC.

    Is it possible that what is perceived as chatter on the shoulder is actually a planchet defect rather than pmm damage? After all the coin seems well preserved from its original roll. Just asking as I am far from an expert in this area

    While marks on the shoulder can be PMD, most of the time that chatter you see on the shoulder area of a Lincoln cent are planchet marks that did not strike out. They are as made but will count against the grade if the graders feel they are too distracting. I cannot recall seeing any MS68's, and very few 67+'s with that much chatter.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
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    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 1, 2023 12:20PM

    @Walkerlover said:

    @JohnBCoins said:
    Chatter on the jacket on Lincoln's right should would eliminate it from being a plus coin to me.
    I used to do reconsideration submissions along with first base grading for PCGS at the MOS & Live grading events before PCGS & I parted ways. The shoulder would definitely be an area I would focus on when assessing a Lincoln Cent for high grades along with the strike on the "O" of One on the reverse. I doubt CACG will give it a plus once I give them solid reasons why it does not deserve the plus. However, anything is possible. I have seen mistakes made by grading services before after giving my opinion then having the coin bypass me in the grading room while at PCGS. I am sure similar events will happen at CACG.

    Thanks for your feedback. I do see the chatter on Lincoln’s shoulder. But in hand the chatter is very minimal and not distracting. I think my I phone photo is exaggerating the extent of the contact marks.

    But having not seen the coin in hand John while Mr. Albanese has, and he rated it an A coin, it is presumptuous for you to say you will kill its chances in the grading room. Wait at least to see it before making such drastic comments

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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:

    @Clackamas1 said:

    The coin is already 67RD. The coin already has a CAC sticker. While I agree the color suffix is not guaranteed over time, JA JUST saw this coin, and said it was an “A” coin for the grade. So in his opinion, it’s still at least 95% Red (and based on the photos, I don’t think the color is in question at all). As noted by the OP and by me in my reply above, in JA’s well respected opinion, the coin DOES merit a plus, AND he saw the coin in hand!

    @Walkerlover said:

    @Clackamas1 said:

    @Walkerlover said:
    I recently bought this 1939 MS 67 RD Lincoln. I subsequently submitted the coin to CAC and received a green sticker, with the comment from JA that if he could he would approve it for a plus grade but that he couldn’t guarantee what will happen with the new graders at CACG in the future.

    The only downside you have is that PCGS backed the red when that was graded. I would say it has too many planchet flaws not stuck through the shoulder to + and you lose the older holder. Take some good photos, and if it comes back a 67RD CAC will sticker it again. If it comes back a 67+ they will sticker it again. 68RD you lose the sticker but you have a 68RD - It will cost some money and time. I have like 30 CAC 67rd' graded well before +. I leave them alone .

    The color is the least of my problems Lol. Color is so bright copper red as it is untoned and pristine from being in an original roll in that Omaha Bank Hoard.

    Now - what about a decade from now - BTW - the Omaha bank coins were so over graded it was sad. Both the lincolns and the jeffs.

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    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2023 1:32AM

    This OMB HOARD coin is so pristine and beautiful in color, luster and lack of marks that it may upgrade to a 67+. Also has a CAC endorsement. What about 10 years from now? It STOOD THE TEST OF TIME FOR 80 YEARS, and is in an Older 2005 holder. I keep it in a protective sleeve that shuts air as well.

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,127 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Clackamas1 said:

    @winesteven said:

    @Clackamas1 said:

    Now - what about a decade from now - BTW - the Omaha bank coins were so over graded it was sad. Both the lincolns and the jeffs.

    On many of the coins graded, I agree. It appears the OP's coin escaped this fate and appears a true superb GEM MS67.

    peacockcoins

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    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭

    .

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    BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd leave it alone as many copper buyers want their cents in older holders.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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    AvocetAvocet Posts: 226 ✭✭✭✭

    I would leave it as is. The older holder is a plus and CAC green hints that the coin may not grade higher as well. A beautiful coin!

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    it seems to be a math problem

    $200 for 67 .... $600 for 67+

    cost for chance (shipping both ways, review cost, handling fee) ... obviously lower per coin if you do more than this one

    probability of success ? (I don't know enough about these and current grading to answer)

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    UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,522 ✭✭✭

    I personally would leave it as is even though I think it has an excellent chance of getting a + grade.

    The stable older holder is more important to me than the money aspect.

    Joe.

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    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2023 10:06PM


    Coin in its scratch protector sleeve with resealable tape to shut out air. Silly to think coin will deteriorate in 10 years

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    FrazFraz Posts: 1,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2023 8:52AM

    Keep it as it is for mystery and anticipation—resubmit it for catharsis.
    Would contributors make the same comments if @Walkerlover had posted the coin after a successful resubmission?
    You guys levitated my awareness another degree in this thread, nonetheless.

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    privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 3,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd keep it as is

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc

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    AotearoaAotearoa Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just wish I could edit the title of this thread...

    Smitten with DBLCs.

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    AlanSkiAlanSki Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The sticker itself means it’s really good as a 67 which essentially means a +, no?

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    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2023 5:40PM

    @AlanSki said:
    The sticker itself means it’s really good as a 67 which essentially means a +, no?

    No, the sticker doesn't mean that the coin would automatically upgrade to a + at CAC or anywhere else. It just means the coin is an A or B level coin. In this case JA indicated he thinks it is an A level coin, and it is possible it could receive a + grade at CAC, but not guaranteed.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2023 10:51AM

    @Walkerlover said:

    Coin in its scratch protector sleeve with resealable tape to shut out air. Silly to think coin will deteriorate in 10 years

    Slabs aren’t airtight and a few plastic slip over covers do not offer much, if any, protection. There are many older red copper coins that have mellowed or otherwise become red brown through the years in TPG slabs. There is merit to the older holder stability argument. If your goal is financial, then that may matter much less especially when it is stickered though. Unless it you need the plus for a registry set, I’d leave it alone if your goal is to keep the coin.

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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Reconsideration is also an option, but grading will be more conservative grading through the plastic as opposed to using the regrade tool. You would keep the sticker and the current holder unless it upgraded.

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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Catbert said:
    Another factor to consider is that it’s in a pre-prong holder so the color is stable. As a collector, I’d leave it as is.

    100% agree. Stable red in the current holder, now has the CAC sticker. There’s nothing that would make me jeopardize that stable red.

    Leave as is!

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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful coin BTW!

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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:
    This OMB HOARD coin is so pristine and beautiful in color, luster and lack of marks that it may upgrade to a 67+. Also has a CAC endorsement. What about 10 years from now? It STOOD THE TEST OF TIME FOR 80 YEARS, and is in an Older 2005 holder. I keep it in a protective sleeve that shuts air as well.

    In an original bank wrapped roll. I have gone through over a thousand of these period rolls. I still have about 1500 I have never gone through. Back in the day (Early Ebay) late 90's you could buy bags of OBW rolls by the forklift. I made some 68RDs from these - you need to be able to see what is OBW and judge. I once had an old dude that was getting screwed by his local shop on these rolls, I bought $30K worth of rolls from him. The top pop on war Jeffs (half the MS double eye DDO's Jeffs) and 30's and 40's lincolns are nailed with coins from this hoard. I payed a fair price. The only reason your coin stood 80 years is because it was in between other coins.

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    Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 4,455 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn’t try upgrade it, unless I planned on selling it right away. Not all my slabbed coins are nicer than their assigned grade, but I like the ones that look nicer than the grade more than the ones where the coins look like they are maxed out grade wise. It’s psychological, I know, but I like undergraded slabbed coins.

    Mr_Spud

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    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭

    @Clackamas1 said:

    @Walkerlover said:
    This OMB HOARD coin is so pristine and beautiful in color, luster and lack of marks that it may upgrade to a 67+. Also has a CAC endorsement. What about 10 years from now? It STOOD THE TEST OF TIME FOR 80 YEARS, and is in an Older 2005 holder. I keep it in a protective sleeve that shuts air as well.

    In an original bank wrapped roll. I have gone through over a thousand of these period rolls. I still have about 1500 I have never gone through. Back in the day (Early Ebay) late 90's you could buy bags of OBW rolls by the forklift. I made some 68RDs from these - you need to be able to see what is OBW and judge. I once had an old dude that was getting screwed by his local shop on these rolls, I bought $30K worth of rolls from him. The top pop on war Jeffs (half the MS double eye DDO's Jeffs) and 30's and 40's lincolns are nailed with coins from this hoard. I payed a fair price. The only reason your coin stood 80 years is because it was in between other coins.

    What does the term OBW mean? Also why did you say what about 10 years from now if it has been in a stable 2005 older holder for 18 years and it is still pristine from the roll since 1939. Please explain yourself.

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    OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We on this forum are not going to be able to discern a grade difference on a coin that is already 67RD on the basis of pictures. Your option is reconsideration or regrade. Or, maybe just a TrueView for your digital set? Your coin has a real WOW factor which is not a consideration as to its a actual numerical grade.

    Do collectors really care if a coin is 67 or 67+???? Only dealers do.

    OINK

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    Do collectors really care if a coin is 67 or 67+???? Only dealers do.

    Dealers care about selling coins to collectors. If collectors didn't care about plus grades, dealers wouldn't, either.

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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2023 10:27PM

    @Walkerlover said:

    What does the term OBW mean? Also why did you say what about 10 years from now if it has been in a stable 2005 older holder for 18 years and it is still pristine from the roll since 1939. Please explain yourself.

    Original bank wrapped. So in paper that coin sat without contact from the atmosphere or moisture - otherwise you would have known, when you 'release' the coin they can and do turn. Some of the best coins sit in rolls and have marginal exposure and get a look. When you open a roll from the 30's for the first time sometimes you get a peach fuzz look. You can't fake it and it makes the coin have a look that is desirable and stable. Stewart Blay's 1919's are classic examples. You will get with different years different looks, it has to do with the alloys and the dies. In the 1950's the dies never came sharp because they were created with worn originals from the mint. That is why you see over time a sharp strike and then take a 1954 that is blah at best. That different strike also dictates how the coin oxidizes. Then the alloy's themselves, pre-war vs. post war. You can tell a pre vs. post war coin by strike and color in 1/10th of a second. I am getting old but with Jeffersons one could reliably guess the date an mint mark just on color and strike.

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