Did you bid on counterstamps in this weekend's Heritage auction....Got Chopmarks?
1TwoBits
Posts: 457 ✭✭✭✭
There were some interesting counterstamps in this weekend's Heritage auction.
Did you win any counterstamp lots? Which ones? I was interested in the two coin lot 7559, an 1831 quarter counterstamped A. BOYDEN and 1893 Columbian Exposition Half Dollar with multiple chopmarks. I had a feeling the chopmark aficionados would be all over the Columbian, which they seemed to be, so I was out. If a Forum member won this lot and isn't interested in the 1831 quarter, please let me know.
But about those chopmarks...they seem unusual to me and not what I'm used to seeing on trade dollars. What did the chopmark aficionados think about these chopmarks (and the "S")?
In a similar situation, I did win two coin lot 4049 which consisted of an 1875-CC twenty cent piece counterstamped H.H. DAVIS (Brunk D-135). I was interested in the other coin in the lot, so if there are any Forum members collecting twenty cent pieces and interested in the counterstamp, send me a PM.
It's always nice when auctions combine like items to make it easier to bid, unlike these two lots.
1TwoBits
Comments
Calling @OriginalDan
I am NOT an expert, just a fan. At a glance, they look a touch wonky to me but that is a knee-jerk reaction and my knee-jerk reactions are certainly not even in the same ballpark as definitive.
Also, I tried to buy the seated half but it went for over $400 with the juice which is more than I really wanted to pay with the coin in such worn condition
I don't like the chops on that Columbian half. They look unlike any other chopmarks I've looked at, and the host is not known with legitimate chopmarks anywhere else. The likelihood of those being chopmarks from China in the late 1800's is miniscule.
The S certainly does not look like any chop mark I have seen.... I do have Rose's book, and no S listed that I recall. The others may be authentic... Nothing stands out on them. Cheers, RickO
The top “chop” has raised edges like it was done with a knife or a tool.
Good eye. That in itself casts doubt on the others.
Wonky seems about right @lermish. Also, as @scubafuel mentions, those top marks do look like digs of some sort. The two marks that look like chops don't look like any chops I've really seen before, and are probably not chopmarks from China as @OriginalDan notes. I'm in the dark on the book you mention @ricko, but that sounds interesting.
1TwoBits
Almost certainly not genuine chops. The type is listed in Rose, but the chop on that example is of a type that is considered to be a later counterfeit (prevalent on MT Thaler restrikes); this is the only other claimed example I've seen, and the marks are stylistically not consistent with authentic coins.
Here’s what Rose had to say about it
@1TwoBits ... The book on chop marks, by F.M. Rose, is the only reference on chop marks. It is out of print and quite scarce. See @DNADave post above for further information. Cheers, RickO
I have a question for the chop mark experts. In the mid 1800's, there was a large Chinese population on the west coast mostly in California. Is there any documentation that the Chinese merchants there chop marked coins? At the time there were many counterfeit silver and gold coins in circulation so it wouldn't surprise me if they did.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
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That is a fantastic question that, despite my collecting in the chopmark world, I never even considered. Thank you for asking, I'm excited for insight from the experts!
PerryHall
I haven’t seen it yet.
Here is a little insight
Alta California December 2,1867
Dollarous Sight-The Mexican Coin Trade (San Francisco)
On Saturday we noticed a crowd of boys at the door of the store of Chy Lung & Co. , on Sacramento street, and looking in, behold a scene which which would be an exceedingly novel and interesting one to a stranger from the East or Europe. Ten Chinese clerks were at work on the floor, in the centre of the store, handling over, assorting and packing up for shipment to China by steamer, a pile of thirty thousand Mexican dollars. The Mexican dollar is the only foreign coin circulating at above its mint value in China, and is therefore bought up largely by the Chinese merchants of San Francisco for export to the “Central Flowery Land.” Every dollar, before being packed up, is passed through the hands of a Chinese expert , who detects a light, defective or counterfeit one at a glance, and instantly rejects it. The sound dollars are packed in large sacks, which are sealed and carefully marked by the packer, then enclosed in a strong wooden box, which is bound with iron bands, sealed at the edges with wax, and neatly marked….
Not the only reference anymore; Colin Gullberg wrote a new reference, Chopmarked Coins - A History, which was released in 2014 and features excellent images. Unfortunately it was issued in a limited print run (500 copies or so), and is only available sporadically in English, though foreign language translations are for some reason available directly through Amazon. Apart from that, The Chopmark News has been published for about 30 years and stretches to a couple thousand pages by this point, a lot of good information in there. I hear tell that there's going to be another book available before too long as well.
@PerryHall, I have never heard of anything like that. Seems doubtful, the community that would have recognized and accepted them didn't exist in California at the time, or at least not in sufficient numbers to stand against the other residents of the area that might discount coins with the marks.
@CaptainBlunt, very interesting excerpt, hadn't heard that one before.
Very unlikely. The system of trade that chopmarks were a part of in China did not exist on the west coast of the United States, so there was no reason to chop the coins. The tools used to chopmark the coins were highly protected and difficult to come by so it's doubtful any made it out of China. There is documentation that Trade Dollars that came home with chopmarks were shunned, and discounted when folks tried to cash them in.
Not sure I posted this one here... it's my lone Chop Marked piece so far...
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@ChopmarkedTrades .... Thank you for that information on chop mark publication/information. I was not aware of either source. Cheers, RickO
This one is a great book but hard to locate I have a copy (not for sale) and it is a great book.
Colin is the person in charge over at Chopmark Society. They have printable journals starting way back from 1990 till now at a cost of course. You need to contact Colin by e-mail and maybe just maybe he still have a copy of his book for sale.
He lives somewhere in Asia so it may take some time to answer you. He is originally from Canada I believe. If there is an expert on the subject he is the one.
PM me if you want more info or his contact e-mail.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
That is how I got his book I contacted him via e-mail he had one copy left and I was lucky he sold it to me. But that was over a year ago he may have others or he may not.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
I agree with what the other chopmark experts here have said: those chopmarks on the Columbian Half look very suspicious, for all of the reasons that others have mentioned.
@PerryHall asks a question that I have often wondered about myself.
Interesting historical snippet from @CaptainBlunt. Sounds like a 19th century version of a preclearance inspection.
I heartily recommend the Colin Gullberg book.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Not much on chop marks in this one but good info on counter marks.
I hear tell that there's going to be another book available before too long as well.
@ChopmarkedTrades do you have any additional information on this other book? As you and others have mentioned the Rose and Gullberg books are extremely hard to come by.
Philippians 4:4-7
There is a guy called Colin Gullberg has a chopmark news letter. You can google him. here is the June 2019 issue. You can subscript to his new letter by paying couple dollars or provide chopmark coin photos to him.
https://www.academia.edu/43322282/Chopmark_News_June_2019
I used to have some chopmark coins other than Gin Japan Yen but chopmark coins are hard to sell so I stop buying them.
This was true in the past, but not anymore. The number of collectors and popularity of chopmarked coins has risen considerably over the past couple years.
This was one of the most expensive chopmark coin I have couple years ago. I think I sold it for 10K couple years ago now it might worth 50K to 100K I am not sure since chopmark coin is hard to put in a right price because not many people like chopmark coin. I do know if this coin is not chopmark it would have worth about 200K to 500K now since Chinese coin price skyrocket in the last couple years
The go to guy in this area of collecting for sure. His book on the subject is excellent. I learned a whole lot from it. But like I said very hard to locate a copy not many were produced.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Killer coin, wish I had known it was for sale.
It's supposed to be in the last stages of review and available sometime early next year, likely through Amazon to avoid the limited print run of the earlier books.
Colin is coming out with an updated version?
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
He's talked about composing an updated version in a few years, but no, this is a new publication from a different author.
I won lot 7559 and I am not interested in the 1831 quarter counterstamp. I wish they had not combined the two lots. Please let me know how to contact TwoBits directly.
Frank Rose issued a rarity scale for chopmarked coins in July 2001. On that list, he states that chopmarked Columbian half dollars are very rare with 5 to 10 in existence. The list was compiled by Ed Murphy in 2001.
You can PM him by clicking on his name and following the prompt to message.
You may want to post your own photos of the pieces you acquired as we are skeptical of new members responding to want lists.
I once had a new guy contact me about an auction lot I missed and set up a want ad here. But when I asked for photos, he kept sending me cropped shots from the auction. Of course, that raised red flags and wouldn't you know it, the scammer was banned the next day.
Not saying you are a scammer, but the circle of trust is a powerful thing here. So please snap some shots of this lot. A lot of us are curious about the Columbian Dollar, and we'd like to hear your thoughts.
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"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Email sent on how to contact 1TwoBits.
Thank you @MWallace, I also sent @winscoutnc a message.
1TwoBits
The 2001 rarity list is excellent for its time but was compiled mostly pre-internet. We now have over 20 years of additional data, including major auctions and eBay sales. Many more chopmarked collectors have joined the hunt and the sharing of information is much greater than it was. A new list should be compiled.
Also worth noting, Rose seems to think his Columbian half bore legitimate chopmarks. We now know the chopmark on his Colubmian is a fake modern stamp.
Does anyone have a photo of Frank Rose's Columbian half with chopmarks? It would be good to see it for comparison.
Sorry, I see it earlier in the string. Fig. 98
@ChopmarkedTrades any updates on this book or when it might be available?
Philippians 4:4-7
Will likely be sometime this year, but no specific dates.
Any news about the book or its availability?
Philippians 4:4-7
On its way, should be within the next month.
Thanks @ChopmarkedTrades please keep us posted.
Philippians 4:4-7
Yes, please keep us posted!
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
The book has been released, By Weight, Not By Coyne - An Introduction to Chopmarked Coins.
Link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C79L8GCT
Just ordered my copy!
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"