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Tools of accountability

logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

Thinking of all the tools of accountability we have in this hobby, which have you employed or would use if a seller isn't willing to play by honest rules?

As a customer you go to a coin show, and dealers misrepresent the raw coins they are selling, calling AUs, Uncs, calling problem coins nice AUs, etc.. After the purchase, you get the coins graded, they are way off. The dealer is known for such misrepresentation. The dealer is unresponsive and dismissive when contacted. Do you contact the show manager or go over their heads to a numismatic organization or state consumer authority?

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,322 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We all know the solution to this issue, know how to grade and ID problem coins, but in all truth that is probably done a very small percent by the buyers in the hobby. Have no idea the percentage, but would imagine it to be very low. Therefore, use credit cards or paypal to pay for your merchandise and photograph the coin during the sale and if no help is available at the time of purchase, just ask the seller what his return policy is in that regard. If he says none, move on. It is a learning process, but a new hobbyist does not have to take a Yale expense shellacking for a Community College education. JMO
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 5,882 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Knowledge is power
    If you have a chance to exam the coin before you buy the coin, it's on you!

    Here is a question for all
    A coin sent into a TOP grading service comes back XF cleaned. Then cracked out and resubmitted and now in a XF strait grade?
    So this just shows just how subjected grading is!

    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    As a customer you go to a coin show, and dealers misrepresent the raw coins they are selling, calling AUs, Uncs, calling problem coins nice AUs, etc.. After the purchase, you get the coins graded, they are way off. The dealer is known for such misrepresentation.

    If he's known for such, why are you buying from him if you can't grade yourself?

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,860 ✭✭✭✭✭

    if you do not like the dealers' grading standards, just walk away

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PTVETTER said:
    Knowledge is power
    If you have a chance to exam the coin before you buy the coin, it's on you!

    Here is a question for all
    A coin sent into a TOP grading service comes back XF cleaned. Then cracked out and resubmitted and now in a XF strait grade?
    So this just shows just how subjected grading is!

    I am asking more as an academic question of whether there are tools of accountability as on ebay. On ebay the buyers have all the rights of holding dishonest sellers accountable. As the largest market for numismatics I would suggest that their standard is the prevailing standard for raw coins and consumer rights.

    I would question the assertion of subjectivity of grading. An assessment of PCGS and NGC's grading (and also to Anacs and Icg) as "arbitrary" or capricious is simply untrue. The top graders agree most of the time as David Hall has said.

    The problems we saw with Accugrade is that they were assigning arbitrary and capricious grades to coins that were clearly untrue, why they were liable for those mistakes.

    As a seller I have never had a problem with returns whether with raw or certified coins. If a buyer is unhappy with a purchase I would not want to force them to keep it.

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    yspsalesyspsales Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2022 11:26AM

    With baseball cards, I only select those that would grade 8 or better.

    I list the flaws, and give overall views of the problem area of a card.

    Include closeups in images.

    Ebay won't let me "grade" the card, but I have shared my expert opinion via PM's with regards to probable grade.

    If it is a series I have less experience with (Churchman's Boxing cig cards) I give my best based on past results.

    Gotts stick to ones circle of competence.

    I do okay with Lincoln Cents... it is a stretch beyond that series. Morgans and Buffs a bit less.

    My goal is complete the ANA certification by end of 2024.

    If I had the skills and were a raw coin dealer, I would have zero issue describing problems.

    Discounted and moving inventory while being honest seems like a winning business strategy.

    If anyone buys a raw coin, I would expect it to be cleaned or otherwise problem oriented. If it carried any value, then why is it not in a TPG holder?

    BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2022 12:54PM

    No

    You gambled and lost.

    Just take responsibility for your tuition and learn from your mistakes.

    Would suggest PCGS certified coins.
    Taking ANA grading course.
    Books on grading.

    Costs of any litigation would probably exceed loss.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    Project NumismaticsProject Numismatics Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Always best to form your opinion and not rely on a dealer. Caveat emptor - particularly for raw coins in person.

    I’m still paying tuition. Apparently there is always more to learn.

    Generally in a minute or less, it’s fairly obvious what kind of material a dealer specializes in, whether the coins are generally problem free or dreck and whether pricing is generally in line with market (if visibly marked). Just move on if you’re uncomfortable with that particular dealers inventory!

    I took the in-person ANA grading course this year - it was extremely helpful and enjoyable. I should have done it 20 years ago as a YN!

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    OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,836 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    Thinking of all the tools of accountability we have in this hobby, which have you employed or would use if a seller isn't willing to play by honest rules?

    As a customer you go to a coin show, and dealers misrepresent the raw coins they are selling, calling AUs, Uncs, calling problem coins nice AUs, etc.. After the purchase, you get the coins graded, they are way off. The dealer is known for such misrepresentation. The dealer is unresponsive and dismissive when contacted. Do you contact the show manager or go over their heads to a numismatic organization or state consumer authority?

    And that's one of the reasons I don't go the coin shows. Besides walking in circles for hours, waiting to talk to a dealer and not finding what I'm looking for. I have a couple of reputable coin shop dealers I deal with.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

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    P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2022 3:55PM

    @DeplorableDan said:
    spare me the high pressure tactics, I work in sales, don't make me feel like I'm at the office.

    Haha, I’m in sales too and it’s funny how transparent some of the tactics on the bourse floor are. Probably effective on many folks, but I usually just get a good chuckle out of it and move along.

    Nothing is as expensive as free money.

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    lermishlermish Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @P0CKETCHANGE said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    spare me the high pressure tactics, I work in sales, don't make me feel like I'm at the office.

    Haha, I’m in sales too and it’s funny how transparent some of the tactics on the bourse floor are. Probably effective on many folks, but I usually just get a good chuckle out of it and move along.

    I have quite a bit of sales training and couldn't agree more.

    At my local show, the two best dealers (imo) are both forthright and honest and genuinely nice & good people. Oddly enough, they always have the best material and the biggest crowds at their tables. Funny how that works.

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    P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:
    I have quite a bit of sales training

    That doesn’t surprise me at all given the negotiation we went through on the coin you bought from me :D

    Nothing is as expensive as free money.

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    oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,640 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting that some posts put the onus squarely on the buyer. There is no excuse for dishonesty. We can't be experts in EVERY field and must rely on the honesty of sellers to properly represent their product. Although caveat emptor is a necessary policy for any buyer of a good or service, we all make mistakes and this doesn't excuse dishonest behavior in any field, from coin dealers to electricians to doctors. Sad that this seems a topic of debate.

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    MS66MS66 Posts: 200 ✭✭✭

    Wow, some people are fast and loose with the word "dishonesty" just because the coin they submitted to a TPG didn't come back the way they wanted.

    Opinions are opinions, not unquestionable facts. There's no way a dealer can predict the results of a submission, even if he tries. No one can do that.

    MANY people who come here complaining should be buying slabbed coins, EOS. They want a specific grade? Well that's how to get it.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We've strayed from the question. Perhaps it was poorly asked. There are methods of accountability for dishonesty. Grading disagreements wouldn't fall into that category. If you want a grade guarantee, you buy a holdered coin.

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    conrad99conrad99 Posts: 360 ✭✭✭

    @DeplorableDan said:

    I was at a local show this past weekend, mostly uninteresting generic material. Came across a dealers table where he had several raw 18th century draped bust dollars. one caught my eye, an 1797 I believe. It appeared to be in nice XF condition and had $10,000 written on the 2x2.

    I'm the last person who would swear by TPG certification but even I don't know why a dealer is selling $10K coins without it.

    Aside from the obvious reason of course..

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    pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    None of us like to see it ... but in your scenario, it went way too far. You bought it, showed it to three of your friends in better light and they all said, "Dude, that's not MS63, that's a whizzed 55!!"

    @Catbert said:
    Be personally accountable for poor decisions. Resolve to learn from mistakes.

    I certainly don't endorse fraud or unethical behavior by dealers. However, I take responsibility for my actions.

    THIS!!!!

    .
    Now, in the case of someone truly unknowledgeable getting taken in by such a huckster, well, then I think we have to look and the ANA, PNG and other avenues, as they might apply.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From time to time the ANA would help serious collectors with various resources, not saying that being an ANA member is indicative of being ethical but it doesn't hurt. I remember them publishing names of dealers who'd been given the boot. Years ago there was a dealer with all types of raw coins with raving "grades" and written descriptions with bright lights as if to advertise their star worthiness. His sales program was transparently not honest and he was later arrested by the feds for importing antiques illegally. In many situations there is no prospect of accountability at pawn shops, flea markets, or on Craigslist. Ebay has evolved from a Wild West environment with some basic regulations. Honest sellers have done quite well in many cases while those who followed the old disregard for grading requiring buyers to be extra alert with "caveat emptor" emblazoned on their potential buys have not done so well.

    Sales are huge in most businesses, there is no one to hold our hands at every turn. I just got a call from a sales guy; they are the same, they will not take "no" for an answer. Once in a while I wish that the most notorious unscrupulous sellers at shows would have to answer oversight concerns. We aren't a third world country after all. And buyers who expect too much should be told that.

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    Project NumismaticsProject Numismatics Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What is “dishonesty” vs a difference of opinion? People can legitimately disagree on grade, whether a coin has been cleaned, etc.

    Additionally, dealers make mistakes just like people in every profession. Mechanics, doctors and lawyers also have legitimate differences of opinions and make honest mistakes. How it should be handled depends on the specifics of the situation.

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    DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @J2035 said:
    What is “dishonesty” vs a difference of opinion? People can legitimately disagree on grade, whether a coin has been cleaned, etc.

    Additionally, dealers make mistakes just like people in every profession. Mechanics, doctors and lawyers also have legitimate differences of opinions and make honest mistakes. How it should be handled depends on the specifics of the situation.

    I don't really think the definition of "dishonesty" really needs to be spelled out, but in the coin world, I would imagine that it would be intentional deceit used for personal gain. Much different than a simple "difference of opinion". Yes, I agree that people in every profession, including numismatics, unintentionally make mistakes. I believe that the frequency of said "mistakes", and how it was handled thereafter, could be used to determine if one was operating in the realm of dishonesty.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2022 5:01PM

    @DeplorableDan said:

    @yspsales said:

    If I had the skills and were a raw coin dealer, I would have zero issue describing problems.

    Discounted and moving inventory while being honest seems like a winning business strategy.

    If anyone buys a raw coin, I would expect it to be cleaned or otherwise problem oriented. If it carried any value, then why is it not in a TPG holder?

    While I agree completely, for some odd reason, many dealers are resistant to change in that aspect. I wasn't around to see how things were done in the old days, but here in 2022, the information age, some of these antiquated sales tactics do nothing other than confirm my suspicions about ones honesty and integrity.

    I was at a local show this past weekend, mostly uninteresting generic material. Came across a dealers table where he had several raw 18th century draped bust dollars. one caught my eye, an 1797 I believe. It appeared to be in nice XF condition and had $10,000 written on the 2x2. I asked to look at it out of curiosity, and unsolicited the dealer told me he could do that one for 7k. When I saw it up close, I could tell the surfaces had something going on. I mentioned that I would be much more interested if the coin was slabbed, and the dealer scoffed and then mumbled something about tpgs sucking too much money from the hobby. Ok dude, "tell me this coin was in a details holder before, without telling me" lol. Perhaps I was in the market for a details bust dollar, but when I encounter any type behavior that indicates a lack of transparency, I have now written you off as a source entirely. I then inquired about another slabbed coin, and was quoted a fair price, before the dealer opened up his book and acted as if he made a mistake "oh darn it, I wish I had looked in here before I quoted you that price, you'd be making a mistake by not buying it" PLEEEASSSE spare me the high pressure tactics, I work in sales, don't make me feel like I'm at the office.

    And had you bought the coin and submitted it for grading you could have lost thousands without "nice guy" reasonable recourse. You could have followed up with the seller after the coin came back as a "cleaned", "tooled", "damaged" or other issue that the seller obscured with his desire to sell it as a "no return" deal. Many years ago I tried various tools available to send a message to sellers that they couldn't employ deceptive tactics to sell raw coins with their stated grades written on the holders without giving gullible and naive buyers recourse. With a coin doctor I filed a complaint with the ANA which permitted a reasonable hearing. Also after doing tens of thousands in business with a very wealthy dealer got ripped off on several raw coins and went over his head to seek a legal remedy. Personally I don't see a moral or ethical obstacle in holding people accountable in any field of business. Fraud is fraud.

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