A strong case can be made for Kareem in men's hoops when you consider his college career. Imagine his stats if he entered the NBA right out of high school.
@doubledragon said:
In boxing, GOAT is up for grabs, it's really a matter of each individuals opinion, a lot of people consider Sugar Ray Robinson to be the best pound for pound boxer that ever lived, Ali won 56 of 61 fights, Sugar Ray Robinson won 173 fights, heck, Rocky Marciano was never defeated, Joe Louis was heavyweight champion for 11 years, defended his title some 26 times. Jimmy Wilde won 93 straight fights to start his career, he was 93-0 before being handed a loss, Julio Cesar Chavez was 89-0 before he was beaten. In a career spanning 25 years, Willie Pep fought 241 fights and went 229-11. Look up Henry Armstrong, definitely a candidate for GOAT, heck Harry Greb won 262 fights. Throw Benny Leonard in there, an absolute boxing genius. While Ali was a brilliant boxer, he certainly wasn't the greatest the sport has ever seen.
For my money, I'll take Joe Louis as a close #2 behind Ali. Sugar Ray Robinson in at 3rd.
DD, I love the information, thank you.
Shouldn't Mayweather Junior be listed? I know he is hated but he is clearly one of the most technical and possible the greatest defensive boxer of all time.
It's a bit complicated with Mayweather, he was one of the smartest boxers ever, brilliant defense, he was obviously never beaten, but the knock I've heard about him is that he waited until certain fighters were past their prime until he fought them, most notably Manny Pacquiao. I've gone back and forth with it, and personally I think that Mayweather Jr was one of the all-time greats, but not a GOAT candidate.
I agree it's complicated but to not even list him seemed odd. I must admit I don't care for the guy and I never liked watching him fight, while his defense is amazing it doesn't always make for the most action packed fights. I prefer Hagler vs Hearns, guys that take their chances and sometimes get beat.
He did avoid certain fights, for example Pacquiao, but this happens all the time in the fight sports.
Thanks again on the history lesson. I had to look up some of the those old timers.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
@FirstBeard said:
A strong case can be made for Kareem in men's hoops when you consider his college career. Imagine his stats if he entered the NBA right out of high school.
At UCLA he won three national titles and lost two games. In the NBA six championships. Every one points to Jordan and James as the goat. I think Kareem in in the discussion as well.
@doubledragon said:
In boxing, GOAT is up for grabs, it's really a matter of each individuals opinion, a lot of people consider Sugar Ray Robinson to be the best pound for pound boxer that ever lived, Ali won 56 of 61 fights, Sugar Ray Robinson won 173 fights, heck, Rocky Marciano was never defeated, Joe Louis was heavyweight champion for 11 years, defended his title some 26 times. Jimmy Wilde won 93 straight fights to start his career, he was 93-0 before being handed a loss, Julio Cesar Chavez was 89-0 before he was beaten. In a career spanning 25 years, Willie Pep fought 241 fights and went 229-11. Look up Henry Armstrong, definitely a candidate for GOAT, heck Harry Greb won 262 fights. Throw Benny Leonard in there, an absolute boxing genius. While Ali was a brilliant boxer, he certainly wasn't the greatest the sport has ever seen.
For my money, I'll take Joe Louis as a close #2 behind Ali. Sugar Ray Robinson in at 3rd.
DD, I love the information, thank you.
Shouldn't Mayweather Junior be listed? I know he is hated but he is clearly one of the most technical and possible the greatest defensive boxer of all time.
It's a bit complicated with Mayweather, he was one of the smartest boxers ever, brilliant defense, he was obviously never beaten, but the knock I've heard about him is that he waited until certain fighters were past their prime until he fought them, most notably Manny Pacquiao. I've gone back and forth with it, and personally I think that Mayweather Jr was one of the all-time greats, but not a GOAT candidate.
I agree it's complicated but to not even list him seemed odd. I must admit I don't care for the guy and I never liked watching him fight, while his defense is amazing it doesn't always make for the most action packed fights. I prefer Hagler vs Hearns, guys that take their chances and sometimes get beat.
He did avoid certain fights, for example Pacquiao, but this happens all the time in the fight sports.
Thanks again on the history lesson. I had to look up some of the those old timers.
Mayweather certainly was a phenomenal boxer, and is definitely a candidate for GOAT, I just have a hard time putting him above some of the all-time greats from the past, guys like Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, those guys were consistently phenomenal world champions, they were hard as nails, and they fought 3 or 4 times as many fights as Mayweather. Take "Homicide" Henry Armstrong for example, a guy that was in your chest an entire fight, you couldn't get him to back up if you threw a stool at him. He is considered by some to be the greatest pound for pound boxer that ever lived, and if you take a close look at his career and resume it's obvious why. He has 13 wins over 10 different hall of famers, he was the worlds first and to this day the only simultaneous triple champion, holding the world championships in three weight divisions at the same time, when their were only eight divisions at that time. The ultimate pressure fighter, in his prime Armstrong rarely gave his opponent time to breathe, he was all over you from the opening bell to the finish, they called him "Homicide" for a reason. The famous boxing trainer Teddy Atlas, who once pulled a gun on Mike Tyson, called Armstrong the greatest pound for pound fighter in history. I often like to imagine what it would have been like for different fighters from different eras to mix it up, here is a fantasy matchup of Armstrong vs Mayweather from an article written in 2012, just for kicks, I love this kind of stuff, boxing absolutely fascinates me to no end. I'm a sucker for the old timers, they were just so tough and fought so many fights, you just don't see stuff like that these days, these guys wete cut from a different cloth. Nowadays you can't even get Terence Crawford to fight Errol Spence due to petty grievances over money.
Floyd Mayweather vs. Henry Armstrong boxing fantasy fight
By Clarence George- September 26, 2012
Armstrong vs. Mayweather: Who Wins?
Given the increasing unlikelihood of Manny Pacquiao vs. Floyd Mayweather Jr. (and, anyway, it’s gotten pretty stale by now), I’ve come up with an alternative opponent for “Money” — one even more worthy than “Pacman”: Henry Armstrong. Here’s a look at how a fight between Floyd Mayweather and “Homicide” Hank would play out in the latest boxing fantasy fight from ProBoxing-Fans.com.
The Fighters:
Armstrong (150-21-10, 101 KOs) defeated 16 champs and remains the only fighter in the history of the sport to simultaneously hold three universally recognized titles — featherweight, welterweight, and lightweight.
He took the featherweight crown from Petey Sarron in 1937, and that was after defeating 22 opponents in a row that same year. With the exception of Aldo Spoldi, whom he beat on points, Armstrong won every single one of those matches by either KO or TKO. He then took the welterweight title from the great Barney Ross in May 1938, and won the lightweight title from Lou Ambers three months later.
Moreover, Armstrong came awfully close to becoming the first in the history of the sport to win four separate titles (at a time when there were only eight divisions) when he took on middleweight champ Ceferino Garcia in 1940. Although the fight was declared a draw, most observers and reporters (as well as boxing analysts and historians) think Armstrong was robbed. The post-bout remark of Garcia’s manager is certainly telling: “You need a baseball bat and a knife to fight that guy.”
Bert Sugar ranks Armstrong second only to Sugar Ray Robinson as the greatest fighter of all time.
Floyd Mayweather (43-0-0, 26 KOs) is an eight-time world titlist and the current number 1 pound for pound fighter in the world. He took the WBC super featherweight championship from Genaro Hernandez in 1998; the WBC lightweight championship from Jose Luis Castillo in 2002; became WBC light welterweight champion in 2005 by defeating Arturo Gatti; took the IBF welterweight championship from Zab Judah in 2006; the WBC and IBA welterweight crowns from Carlos Manuel Baldomir the same year; the WBC light middleweight title from Oscar De La Hoya in 2007; and, most recently, was awarded the WBA’s super world light middleweight title following his defeat of Miguel Cotto earlier this year.
Mayweather boxes the way a grandmaster plays chess — always several moves ahead. He also has an unerring eye for weakness, and a seemingly endless supply of counter moves. He reminds me very much of Willie Pep, that ultimate defensive technician. And he’s very patient — he seems to have an almost preternatural knowledge of when to pounce, and with what blow or series of blows. And he does so, invariably, with devastating effect — as made clear by his undefeated status, and the string of world champions he has defeated.
Armstrong vs. Mayweather The Fight:
Armstrong, swarming and brutal, is on Mayweather like white on rice at the first bell. Rights and lefts, machine-like and hard as stone, come down like winter rain. But Mayweather roots himself in the center of the ring, refusing to be powered onto the ropes — moving, defending, and counter punching. The first round ends with neither fighter tired, though Mayweather is somewhat the worse for wear. Seeing that Armstrong doesn’t bother to sit, Mayweather follows suit.
Mayweather realizes that he can only defend himself so long, and goes on the offensive in round two. Armstrong is indifferent and seemingly impervious. He has no defense to speak of; he doesn’t need any. His training, his experience, the very essence of who he is as a man and a fighter trigger the only action he knows — and no one knows or does it better: He’s an attacker, a chastiser, a wearer-downer.
Nothing Mayweather does stops or even distracts him; Mayweather’s efforts amount to those of a fly buzzing about a horse on a languid summer day — a minor annoyance to be met with shakes of the head and flicks of the tail. Mayweather, running out of both time and options, goes for the KO in round three. Though he lands a couple of hard blows, Armstrong is anything but impressed. He continues to both hit and hurt his opponent. Blood streams from above Mayweather’s eyes.
He’s still fast, but no longer accurate; he can’t see. He’s on the ropes, with Armstrong pummeling him at will. Shots to the arms, the ribs, the head. The round ends. There’s the bell for round four. Mayweather, always gutsy, is game. But not so his corner; the cuts over his eyes are too deep. They look at the blood and keep him on his stool. Armstrong stops Mayweather in the fourth.
Assessment:
“Homicide Hank” was unstoppable with his rapid-fire throwing of jabs, hooks, crosses, uppercuts, and combinations. His opponents — many of whom were nothing short of outstanding — could do what they willed. They could advance, retreat, circle, attack, defend…but they almost always lost, and Mayweather wouldn’t have been among the handful of exceptions.
It comes down to Jack Dempsey’s observation: “All the time he’s boxing, he’s thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him.” Without in any way diminishing, let alone dismissing, Mayweather’s skill and accomplishments, his rather cerebral approach would have been no match for the punishing whirlwind that was Armstrong.
Unless…well, if only he had that baseball bat and knife.
@Goldenage said:
Again, if people took time to do the research, they would see that per game, and by position, no one dominated their sport offensively the way Bobby Orr did. When discussing the four major team sports. The numbers tell the story. Not me. He had no equal. Every other position player, per game does have an equal in points per game. Orr doesn’t.
If we’re speaking strictly offensively, what about Wilt Chamberlain and his offensive dominance? I fully respect Bobby Orr, mind you, but Wilt Chamberlain was an offensive force like nothing basketball has ever seen before or since. There’s a lot of innacuracies about him, the greatest being that he didn’t play against anyone his size. Wilt was 7’1 and the average center was 6’10. In today’s game the average center is 6’11. It’s not his fault he had better physical gifts than the other players; isn’t that much of the argument in favor of Orr, anyway?
This is a really solid collection of his records, many as unbreakable as any records in sports. I would suggest any basketball fan would enjoy how it often they list who was ‘second best’ and how enormous the disparity is between he and the other great scorers. Often, he’s also second…🤔
@doubledragon said:
In boxing, GOAT is up for grabs, it's really a matter of each individuals opinion, a lot of people consider Sugar Ray Robinson to be the best pound for pound boxer that ever lived, Ali won 56 of 61 fights, Sugar Ray Robinson won 173 fights, heck, Rocky Marciano was never defeated, Joe Louis was heavyweight champion for 11 years, defended his title some 26 times. Jimmy Wilde won 93 straight fights to start his career, he was 93-0 before being handed a loss, Julio Cesar Chavez was 89-0 before he was beaten. In a career spanning 25 years, Willie Pep fought 241 fights and went 229-11. Look up Henry Armstrong, definitely a candidate for GOAT, heck Harry Greb won 262 fights. Throw Benny Leonard in there, an absolute boxing genius. While Ali was a brilliant boxer, he certainly wasn't the greatest the sport has ever seen.
For my money, I'll take Joe Louis as a close #2 behind Ali. Sugar Ray Robinson in at 3rd.
DD, I love the information, thank you.
Shouldn't Mayweather Junior be listed? I know he is hated but he is clearly one of the most technical and possible the greatest defensive boxer of all time.
It's a bit complicated with Mayweather, he was one of the smartest boxers ever, brilliant defense, he was obviously never beaten, but the knock I've heard about him is that he waited until certain fighters were past their prime until he fought them, most notably Manny Pacquiao. I've gone back and forth with it, and personally I think that Mayweather Jr was one of the all-time greats, but not a GOAT candidate.
I agree it's complicated but to not even list him seemed odd. I must admit I don't care for the guy and I never liked watching him fight, while his defense is amazing it doesn't always make for the most action packed fights. I prefer Hagler vs Hearns, guys that take their chances and sometimes get beat.
He did avoid certain fights, for example Pacquiao, but this happens all the time in the fight sports.
Thanks again on the history lesson. I had to look up some of the those old timers.
Mayweather certainly was a phenomenal boxer, and is definitely a candidate for GOAT, I just have a hard time putting him above some of the all-time greats from the past, guys like Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, those guys were consistently phenomenal world champions, they were hard as nails, and they fought 3 or 4 times as many fights as Mayweather. Take "Homicide" Henry Armstrong for example, a guy that was in your chest an entire fight, you couldn't get him to back up if you threw a stool at him. He is considered by some to be the greatest pound for pound boxer that ever lived, and if you take a close look at his career and resume it's obvious why. He has 13 wins over 10 different hall of famers, he was the worlds first and to this day the only simultaneous triple champion, holding the world championships in three weight divisions at the same time, when their were only eight divisions at that time. The ultimate pressure fighter, in his prime Armstrong rarely gave his opponent time to breathe, he was all over you from the opening bell to the finish, they called him "Homicide" for a reason. The famous boxing trainer Teddy Atlas, who once pulled a gun on Mike Tyson, called Armstrong the greatest pound for pound fighter in history. I often like to imagine what it would have been like for different fighters from different eras to mix it up, here is a fantasy matchup of Armstrong vs Mayweather from an article written in 2012, just for kicks, I love this kind of stuff, boxing absolutely fascinates me to no end. I'm a sucker for the old timers, they were just so tough and fought so many fights, you just don't see stuff like that these days, these guys wete cut from a different cloth. Nowadays you can't even get Terence Crawford to fight Errol Spence due to petty grievances over money.
Floyd Mayweather vs. Henry Armstrong boxing fantasy fight
By Clarence George- September 26, 2012
Armstrong vs. Mayweather: Who Wins?
Given the increasing unlikelihood of Manny Pacquiao vs. Floyd Mayweather Jr. (and, anyway, it’s gotten pretty stale by now), I’ve come up with an alternative opponent for “Money” — one even more worthy than “Pacman”: Henry Armstrong. Here’s a look at how a fight between Floyd Mayweather and “Homicide” Hank would play out in the latest boxing fantasy fight from ProBoxing-Fans.com.
The Fighters:
Armstrong (150-21-10, 101 KOs) defeated 16 champs and remains the only fighter in the history of the sport to simultaneously hold three universally recognized titles — featherweight, welterweight, and lightweight.
He took the featherweight crown from Petey Sarron in 1937, and that was after defeating 22 opponents in a row that same year. With the exception of Aldo Spoldi, whom he beat on points, Armstrong won every single one of those matches by either KO or TKO. He then took the welterweight title from the great Barney Ross in May 1938, and won the lightweight title from Lou Ambers three months later.
Moreover, Armstrong came awfully close to becoming the first in the history of the sport to win four separate titles (at a time when there were only eight divisions) when he took on middleweight champ Ceferino Garcia in 1940. Although the fight was declared a draw, most observers and reporters (as well as boxing analysts and historians) think Armstrong was robbed. The post-bout remark of Garcia’s manager is certainly telling: “You need a baseball bat and a knife to fight that guy.”
Bert Sugar ranks Armstrong second only to Sugar Ray Robinson as the greatest fighter of all time.
Floyd Mayweather (43-0-0, 26 KOs) is an eight-time world titlist and the current number 1 pound for pound fighter in the world. He took the WBC super featherweight championship from Genaro Hernandez in 1998; the WBC lightweight championship from Jose Luis Castillo in 2002; became WBC light welterweight champion in 2005 by defeating Arturo Gatti; took the IBF welterweight championship from Zab Judah in 2006; the WBC and IBA welterweight crowns from Carlos Manuel Baldomir the same year; the WBC light middleweight title from Oscar De La Hoya in 2007; and, most recently, was awarded the WBA’s super world light middleweight title following his defeat of Miguel Cotto earlier this year.
Mayweather boxes the way a grandmaster plays chess — always several moves ahead. He also has an unerring eye for weakness, and a seemingly endless supply of counter moves. He reminds me very much of Willie Pep, that ultimate defensive technician. And he’s very patient — he seems to have an almost preternatural knowledge of when to pounce, and with what blow or series of blows. And he does so, invariably, with devastating effect — as made clear by his undefeated status, and the string of world champions he has defeated.
Armstrong vs. Mayweather The Fight:
Armstrong, swarming and brutal, is on Mayweather like white on rice at the first bell. Rights and lefts, machine-like and hard as stone, come down like winter rain. But Mayweather roots himself in the center of the ring, refusing to be powered onto the ropes — moving, defending, and counter punching. The first round ends with neither fighter tired, though Mayweather is somewhat the worse for wear. Seeing that Armstrong doesn’t bother to sit, Mayweather follows suit.
Mayweather realizes that he can only defend himself so long, and goes on the offensive in round two. Armstrong is indifferent and seemingly impervious. He has no defense to speak of; he doesn’t need any. His training, his experience, the very essence of who he is as a man and a fighter trigger the only action he knows — and no one knows or does it better: He’s an attacker, a chastiser, a wearer-downer.
Nothing Mayweather does stops or even distracts him; Mayweather’s efforts amount to those of a fly buzzing about a horse on a languid summer day — a minor annoyance to be met with shakes of the head and flicks of the tail. Mayweather, running out of both time and options, goes for the KO in round three. Though he lands a couple of hard blows, Armstrong is anything but impressed. He continues to both hit and hurt his opponent. Blood streams from above Mayweather’s eyes.
He’s still fast, but no longer accurate; he can’t see. He’s on the ropes, with Armstrong pummeling him at will. Shots to the arms, the ribs, the head. The round ends. There’s the bell for round four. Mayweather, always gutsy, is game. But not so his corner; the cuts over his eyes are too deep. They look at the blood and keep him on his stool. Armstrong stops Mayweather in the fourth.
Assessment:
“Homicide Hank” was unstoppable with his rapid-fire throwing of jabs, hooks, crosses, uppercuts, and combinations. His opponents — many of whom were nothing short of outstanding — could do what they willed. They could advance, retreat, circle, attack, defend…but they almost always lost, and Mayweather wouldn’t have been among the handful of exceptions.
It comes down to Jack Dempsey’s observation: “All the time he’s boxing, he’s thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him.” Without in any way diminishing, let alone dismissing, Mayweather’s skill and accomplishments, his rather cerebral approach would have been no match for the punishing whirlwind that was Armstrong.
Unless…well, if only he had that baseball bat and knife.
Great read, thank you! I would have loved to see Floyd have to deal with him.
It looks like Sugar Ray Robinson beat him in a decision but he was probably on his decline at that stage of his career.
Anyone that grew up in the depression era was hardened like steel.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
So it looks like not only was a Sportscaster Moses' rookie, but that, according to PSA, he had no other cards until the end of his streak in 1987. Only two Sportscasters graded. I just can't imagine winning 122 races in a row or what kind of dominance that would take.
If the key to greatness is diversity, I'll nominate Jackie Robinson (look at what he did before the Dodgers), Bob Gibson (the Harlem Globetrotter!), and Babe Didrikson.
Baseball - Babe Ruth
Football - Tom Brady
Basketball - Bill Russell
Golf - Jack Nicklaus/Tiger Woods
Always looking for Mantle cards such as Stahl Meyer, 1954 Dan Dee, 1959 Bazooka, 1960 Post, 1952 Star Cal Decal, 1952 Tip Top Bread Labels, 1953-54 Briggs Meat, and other Topps, Bowman, and oddball Mantles.
Comments
In basketball offense you get the ball to your best scorer. So MJ and Wilt are equals. The difference in ppg between MJ/KD and Wilt/AJ favors Wilt.
In hockey offense is structured around the forwards and defensemen mostly defend.
It’s not like basketball offense generally speaking.
A defenseman in hockey stays at the point, and doesn’t go near the net/basket, unless he is Bobby Orr and no one can stop him.
Baseball - Babe Ruth (1916 Sporting News)
Basketball - Michael Jordan (1986-87 Fleer)
Football - Tom Brady
Hockey - Wayne Gretzky (1979 OPC)
Golf - Tiger Woods
Boxing - Muhammad Ali
Tennis - Roger Federer
Wrestling - Hulk Hogan
Relaxation Painting - Bob Ross
Knitting - My Grandmother
Soccer - Not a sport
Shane
A strong case can be made for Kareem in men's hoops when you consider his college career. Imagine his stats if he entered the NBA right out of high school.
I agree it's complicated but to not even list him seemed odd. I must admit I don't care for the guy and I never liked watching him fight, while his defense is amazing it doesn't always make for the most action packed fights. I prefer Hagler vs Hearns, guys that take their chances and sometimes get beat.
He did avoid certain fights, for example Pacquiao, but this happens all the time in the fight sports.
Thanks again on the history lesson. I had to look up some of the those old timers.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
At UCLA he won three national titles and lost two games. In the NBA six championships. Every one points to Jordan and James as the goat. I think Kareem in in the discussion as well.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
Guys, once again please respect the OP's wishes and leave the debate for another thread. Or even start a new thread to debate these very topics.
Mayweather certainly was a phenomenal boxer, and is definitely a candidate for GOAT, I just have a hard time putting him above some of the all-time greats from the past, guys like Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, those guys were consistently phenomenal world champions, they were hard as nails, and they fought 3 or 4 times as many fights as Mayweather. Take "Homicide" Henry Armstrong for example, a guy that was in your chest an entire fight, you couldn't get him to back up if you threw a stool at him. He is considered by some to be the greatest pound for pound boxer that ever lived, and if you take a close look at his career and resume it's obvious why. He has 13 wins over 10 different hall of famers, he was the worlds first and to this day the only simultaneous triple champion, holding the world championships in three weight divisions at the same time, when their were only eight divisions at that time. The ultimate pressure fighter, in his prime Armstrong rarely gave his opponent time to breathe, he was all over you from the opening bell to the finish, they called him "Homicide" for a reason. The famous boxing trainer Teddy Atlas, who once pulled a gun on Mike Tyson, called Armstrong the greatest pound for pound fighter in history. I often like to imagine what it would have been like for different fighters from different eras to mix it up, here is a fantasy matchup of Armstrong vs Mayweather from an article written in 2012, just for kicks, I love this kind of stuff, boxing absolutely fascinates me to no end. I'm a sucker for the old timers, they were just so tough and fought so many fights, you just don't see stuff like that these days, these guys wete cut from a different cloth. Nowadays you can't even get Terence Crawford to fight Errol Spence due to petty grievances over money.
Floyd Mayweather vs. Henry Armstrong boxing fantasy fight
By Clarence George- September 26, 2012
Armstrong vs. Mayweather: Who Wins?
Given the increasing unlikelihood of Manny Pacquiao vs. Floyd Mayweather Jr. (and, anyway, it’s gotten pretty stale by now), I’ve come up with an alternative opponent for “Money” — one even more worthy than “Pacman”: Henry Armstrong. Here’s a look at how a fight between Floyd Mayweather and “Homicide” Hank would play out in the latest boxing fantasy fight from ProBoxing-Fans.com.
The Fighters:
Armstrong (150-21-10, 101 KOs) defeated 16 champs and remains the only fighter in the history of the sport to simultaneously hold three universally recognized titles — featherweight, welterweight, and lightweight.
He took the featherweight crown from Petey Sarron in 1937, and that was after defeating 22 opponents in a row that same year. With the exception of Aldo Spoldi, whom he beat on points, Armstrong won every single one of those matches by either KO or TKO. He then took the welterweight title from the great Barney Ross in May 1938, and won the lightweight title from Lou Ambers three months later.
Moreover, Armstrong came awfully close to becoming the first in the history of the sport to win four separate titles (at a time when there were only eight divisions) when he took on middleweight champ Ceferino Garcia in 1940. Although the fight was declared a draw, most observers and reporters (as well as boxing analysts and historians) think Armstrong was robbed. The post-bout remark of Garcia’s manager is certainly telling: “You need a baseball bat and a knife to fight that guy.”
Bert Sugar ranks Armstrong second only to Sugar Ray Robinson as the greatest fighter of all time.
Floyd Mayweather (43-0-0, 26 KOs) is an eight-time world titlist and the current number 1 pound for pound fighter in the world. He took the WBC super featherweight championship from Genaro Hernandez in 1998; the WBC lightweight championship from Jose Luis Castillo in 2002; became WBC light welterweight champion in 2005 by defeating Arturo Gatti; took the IBF welterweight championship from Zab Judah in 2006; the WBC and IBA welterweight crowns from Carlos Manuel Baldomir the same year; the WBC light middleweight title from Oscar De La Hoya in 2007; and, most recently, was awarded the WBA’s super world light middleweight title following his defeat of Miguel Cotto earlier this year.
Mayweather boxes the way a grandmaster plays chess — always several moves ahead. He also has an unerring eye for weakness, and a seemingly endless supply of counter moves. He reminds me very much of Willie Pep, that ultimate defensive technician. And he’s very patient — he seems to have an almost preternatural knowledge of when to pounce, and with what blow or series of blows. And he does so, invariably, with devastating effect — as made clear by his undefeated status, and the string of world champions he has defeated.
Armstrong vs. Mayweather The Fight:
Armstrong, swarming and brutal, is on Mayweather like white on rice at the first bell. Rights and lefts, machine-like and hard as stone, come down like winter rain. But Mayweather roots himself in the center of the ring, refusing to be powered onto the ropes — moving, defending, and counter punching. The first round ends with neither fighter tired, though Mayweather is somewhat the worse for wear. Seeing that Armstrong doesn’t bother to sit, Mayweather follows suit.
Mayweather realizes that he can only defend himself so long, and goes on the offensive in round two. Armstrong is indifferent and seemingly impervious. He has no defense to speak of; he doesn’t need any. His training, his experience, the very essence of who he is as a man and a fighter trigger the only action he knows — and no one knows or does it better: He’s an attacker, a chastiser, a wearer-downer.
Nothing Mayweather does stops or even distracts him; Mayweather’s efforts amount to those of a fly buzzing about a horse on a languid summer day — a minor annoyance to be met with shakes of the head and flicks of the tail. Mayweather, running out of both time and options, goes for the KO in round three. Though he lands a couple of hard blows, Armstrong is anything but impressed. He continues to both hit and hurt his opponent. Blood streams from above Mayweather’s eyes.
He’s still fast, but no longer accurate; he can’t see. He’s on the ropes, with Armstrong pummeling him at will. Shots to the arms, the ribs, the head. The round ends. There’s the bell for round four. Mayweather, always gutsy, is game. But not so his corner; the cuts over his eyes are too deep. They look at the blood and keep him on his stool. Armstrong stops Mayweather in the fourth.
Assessment:
“Homicide Hank” was unstoppable with his rapid-fire throwing of jabs, hooks, crosses, uppercuts, and combinations. His opponents — many of whom were nothing short of outstanding — could do what they willed. They could advance, retreat, circle, attack, defend…but they almost always lost, and Mayweather wouldn’t have been among the handful of exceptions.
It comes down to Jack Dempsey’s observation: “All the time he’s boxing, he’s thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him.” Without in any way diminishing, let alone dismissing, Mayweather’s skill and accomplishments, his rather cerebral approach would have been no match for the punishing whirlwind that was Armstrong.
Unless…well, if only he had that baseball bat and knife.
Orr in his prime would have easily beat Secretariat
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Great read, thank you! I would have loved to see Floyd have to deal with him.
It looks like Sugar Ray Robinson beat him in a decision but he was probably on his decline at that stage of his career.
Anyone that grew up in the depression era was hardened like steel.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Football - Brady
Baseball - Ted
Basketball - Mike
Hockey - the Great One
Soccer - Ronaldo
Puppetry - Jim Henson
Did you forget about Babe Ruth? I think he knows a little about dominating. He was a great pitcher and hitter for 22 years.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Baseball - Ruth
Basketball - Jordan
Football - Brady / Brown
Hockey - Gretzky
Cooking - Flay
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
There have been great players (in each sport) that deserve honourable mentions but this is my GOAT list.
Hockey-Gretzky
Basketball-MJ
Football-Brady
Baseball-Ruth
Soccer-Pele
So it looks like not only was a Sportscaster Moses' rookie, but that, according to PSA, he had no other cards until the end of his streak in 1987. Only two Sportscasters graded. I just can't imagine winning 122 races in a row or what kind of dominance that would take.
If the key to greatness is diversity, I'll nominate Jackie Robinson (look at what he did before the Dodgers), Bob Gibson (the Harlem Globetrotter!), and Babe Didrikson.
Clarification: You're selecting Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima, not CR7, right?
Valentino Rossi, MotoGP
Baseball - Babe Ruth
Football - Tom Brady
Basketball - Bill Russell
Golf - Jack Nicklaus/Tiger Woods
Always looking for Mantle cards such as Stahl Meyer, 1954 Dan Dee, 1959 Bazooka, 1960 Post, 1952 Star Cal Decal, 1952 Tip Top Bread Labels, 1953-54 Briggs Meat, and other Topps, Bowman, and oddball Mantles.
Coin collecting~ Ricko
I had no choice he held me up with a gun.
These cats don't know Ricko.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
For surfing I’d go with Laird Hamilton and for
swimming and Olympics -Michael Phelps
Painting Artist- Bob Ross
Glass artist- Dale Chihuly
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
I can see Laird in there above Slater. (related note, recommend reading The Wave by Susan Casey if you haven't yet)
Street/public/graffiti artist: Banksy
Competitive Eating: Joey Chestnut
Card: 2008 Topps Allen & Ginter Mini or the holy grail: 2013 Topps Allen and Ginter Mini Autograph 1/1
Only one absolute IMO: Serena Williams.