Food for thought when shipping coins.
Downtown1974
Posts: 6,726 ✭✭✭✭✭
Let me preface this by saying I am a huge advocate of the new NFC technology PCGS uses in their current slabs. I believe it to be the pinnacle in TPG services. With that said, I’d like to share something that happened today. I also brought up a similar situation about a year ago but felt that it fell on deaf ears.
While at the post office today, I was in line awaiting my turn with my parcel in my hand. The parcel was a small flat rate box which contained 2 PCGS coins. Both of these coins had the NFC chip embedded in the slab label. While I was waiting, I feel my phone (which was in my front pocket) vibrate which indicated I had an alert. I reached in and pulled out my phone to find that the alert was PCGS asking if I wanted to view the coins in the app? The phone in my pocket was able to sense the NFC chip of the coins inside my well packed parcel. So upon opening the app, there on my screen was the coins along with the TrueViews and all of the info about the coins including PCGS guide value.
I emailed PCGS about this the last time it happened. I don’t remember hearing back about it.
The slabbed coins shipped today were in sleeves, then placed in Intercept Shield holders, then in another sleeve. Then they were wrapped in packing paper and boxed with tape. Maybe wrapping them in aluminum foil could “jam” the signal of the chip during the shipping process?….I don’t know.
Just want to raise awareness that the contents of your packaged coins could be revealed during transit even if there is no malicious act intended.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
Comments
Sometimes, I'm happy I don't deal with slabbed coins all that much.
This is one of those times.
Ugh...
Now we have another method to make certain our coins disappear into the ether...
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Scary...but how many times has this happened to you? And how many random package thieves have the pcgs app(or other nfc readers) constantly on before they steal packages?
No way to tell for sure but I would guess not many. This is low on my list of concerns.
Technology- solving one problem and creating another.
I think you're right. The only barrier might be to wrap shipped coins in slabs with aluminum foil.
This has only happened to me twice and I must admit, after it happened I did try to replicate the scenario again and I couldn’t do it. But to your point…the first time it happened, it was on my wife’s phone and she has zero interest at all in coins, therefore never had the app.
Edited to add, this is low on my list of concerns as well, but it’s a vulnerability that I thought we should be aware of.
I didn’t have the app open. I wasn’t even on my phone. It was in my pocket. Just the proximity of the package to my phone set it off.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
If eBay was responsible for the NFC chip, would that change your opinion?
Try it and let us know.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Out of curiosity I decided to test the foil trick on one of my nfc purchased holders.
Without foil my phone picked up the chip at right about 2" from the holder. Upon wrapping it with a single layer of foil, it would not pick it up at all.
I'll probably start shipping mine that way. Nothing wrong with a little more cheap protection.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
It's not just for hats anymore.
Check your fillings! 😂
The ordinary NFC antenna such as your phone has probably can't read much beyond 2-3 inches. An amplified antenna can be constructed that fits in a backpack to read at least 70cm (27.5) away. If you wanted to construct a fixed unit tuned for just the frequency of the tag, who knows...
Years ago I was at a preso from the local tollway. The presenter said they had somebody blow through the plaza at 135mph and they got seven clean reads on his tag.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
At least Rattlers and OGH’s are immune to this.
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weird. i have a couple dozen coin apps including the pcgs my account app AND i have some chip holders but nothing happens when they are near my phone when i'm logged into the app. they are coins i subbed so no probs there.
do you have any chip slabs you didn't sub yourself?
Glad I don't own a phone.................oh crap, I own coins with chips, though. ugh.
bob
@Downtown1974 ... Excellent information. While not yet a widespread issue, it could become a concern. And thank you for the follow up experiment/results @privatecoin. Cheers, RickO
That's incredible. How do you communicate with people who aren't within shouting distance? No one answers email anymore..
When I first got my hands on one, I posted what was on the NFC chip...
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12558059/#Comment_12558059
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
It is a problem. People try to text me all the time and I'm on a desk top using my email to communicate. I have, for quite a while now, added my "home phone number to my emails" but that doesn't work either. People don't seem to read more than one line it appears. Or they can't read. My world is obviously a far slower pace than yours and that's not a bad thing.
I don't have my boss texting me, clients texting me, or random shit calling. I'm okay with that. My kids want me to get one for emergencies. Why? If I have an emergency hopefully there will be someone around and surely they will have a phone I can borrow or they can use.
bob
1 of us. 1 of us. 1 of us.
I'm a home phone and email person (so far) myself. I'm gettin by OK. I admit, woulda come in handy a time or 2 tho.
AUandAG sent you a fax and never heard back
www.brunkauctions.com
Ebay is probably the one signaling the thieves. I bet Ebay even steals them to enhance their revenue.
I don't even understand this.
bob
Right, and I admire your slow pace of life. I would seriously like that.
Notwithstanding that, you can get a free Google Voice number and use it to send and receive texts from your desktop or laptop.
The trouble with that is that people will assume it's a cell phone and that you can respond wherever you are.
You can port the GV to your cell phone but I think I've just lost the audience here.
Maybe next time try sending a telegram.
In regard to the issue raised in the original post, this is potentially an enormous problem.
Even if a random package is relatively safe from being identified by a thief in this way, think about high concentrations of slabbed coins being shipped, such as from PCGS or a major coin dealer. It's only a matter of time before a crime ring discovers and focuses on this "opportunity".
I'd just like a way to get proof of shipping without waiting in line at the post office.
Well, I guess there's FedEx (no line usually) but nothing really proves what you have put in the package anyway, does it.
Even Registered Mail doesn't do that, does it?
Scary stuff. I am going to utilize the foil wrap on my next submission of variety attributions.
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That’s interesting to take into account when shipping
But that’s a very specific thing for someone to be looking for. The average person wouldn’t be attempting that. I think it would be very rare that someone would find your coins that way.
There is also faraday technology that could be used for shipping if you have to ship high value coins it may be worth it to look into.
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
https://shop.faradaydefense.com/product/10pc-large-kit-esd-emp-70mil-faraday-bags/?utm_term=&utm_campaign=Faraday+Text+Ads&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=1230616009&hsa_cam=11081447219&hsa_grp=140388607911&hsa_ad=602786907823&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=dsa-1663111167547&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=CjwKCAiAwc-dBhA7EiwAxPRylCm1jknQ5mtLOFomCvfDWZDCfhFhQYdgFapkPsZbS43-VPxRY0HMFxoC1JUQAvD_BwE
I’ve never used one outside of work and don’t know this brand but it’s just an example. Fairly inexpensive.
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
No different than walking thru a mall with your active credit card beaming from back pocket or purse.
We live where there is no internet or wi-fi yet. No TV cable and too far to pick up free TV since they went digital. Before digital we got 3 stations most of the time.
Still waiting for the dudes in the white truck with the ladders on top to arrive down our road.
But the post office has internet so guess we better not mail any coins.
Most accidents happen within 20 miles of home so guess we better move 29-30 miles where there might be internet. Less accidents that way.
The NFC chip in the PCGS holder and the NFC Chip in your credit card are very, very similar. Both combine an antenna and a chip. When the antenna receives sufficient energy, it enables the chip to transmit.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Yup, A little homemade Faraday baggie should be used. You know the bad guys are gonna be locating the NFC chip thru the packaging and poof! It's gone. Peace Roy
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The intent of the post was to raise awareness to fellow collectors…as you can read in my original, unedited post at the top. It wasn’t to instill fear in anybody. Now, what one chooses to do with that information is up to the individual.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
since my new bank card is a "tapper" i started watching some vids about how to prevent someone with a scanning device from just walking close by me and nabbing whatever may be able to be nabbed info/money etc.
from the devices the content creators were using, foil did stop the rfid (if that is what the tech is in the cards) from being read, for ONE single card but for some reason, when 2 cards or more were placed in the foil, some were able to be read.
THAT being said, there are specialty cards that are specifically made to prevent essentially anything from reading the card so long as it is inside. the good ones look to be around $15-20 and i cannot comment about economical versions.
SO, i presume simple foil would work for single slabs in a box. a simple way to test it. i have some of the slabs with chips in them but i had to do something else to get the correct pcgs app and something was annoying or requesting something of me enough so that i opted to not get the app to test out the scanning variances, so someone else here can try it and let us know?
tbh, if the package is valuable enough, perhaps even using foil as some extra packing material would work?
anyone know the cost of copper foil if it is available on the open market? gotta be pretty inexpensive, even at todays prices.
Very interesting.
Would they also protect against an nuclear explosion generated EMP?
Scanning at the counter via any tracking method including registered proves you handed "A" package to them, but no the size or type or contents. I personally will scan every package in at the counter as that way usps has it logged in.
I have now had 2 purchases not scanned in at the counter disappear. One from a member here (still a chance it shows up tho).
As for the op, using larger boxes and/or some other cheap way to inhibit the signal, especially on higher value items, seems pertinent.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
I seem to recall that Mylar film works. Yup, just checked and that's the ticket. Good luck. I'm gonna start lining my packages with it and it doesn't add any weight to boot. Peace Roy
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Another reason to buy only only rattlers & OGHs and they are already in high demand.
Avoid shipping in the small flat rate boxes. These have been increasingly subject to theft. Check out Gerry Fortin’s recent blog on this; he will no longer cover these on his insurance.
Thanks for the information and glad to know that tin foil is still an effective material to use in blocking chips from being read.
Taking this on a similar note, would lining a regular wallet with tin foil protect all the credit and debit cards from being read by a scanning machine? Must each card be wrapped or surrounded by aluminum separately?
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If I recall correctly, you grew up near telegraph street.
Nah, it was Smoke Signal Avenue
bob
If this were really a concern would not our host be shipping submissions back in protective material?
Do they think registered mail is enough security?
Are they looking to revise shipping instructions?
Someone from PCGS please respond to this important thread.
I think it would be in their best interest to be proactive on this concern.
based on the videos i watched of people doing actual scans and comparisons and we could see the results on the screen when a scan worked and didn't based on variations, yes, since foil is essentially the cheapest, one can expect the cheapest results, meaning each card individually BUT if someone is truly series and/or has a serious amount to protect buy the professional version, without question. for each card i mean.
THEN we can test it. leave the card(s) in the sleeves when we go to make a purchase and try to get it to work while still in the sleeve. nothing like real-world testing.
So as a quick update to this thread, I have a high value coin going out, and wrapped it 3x in aluminum foil. Without the foil my phone could detect it easily... With the foil, it can't detect anything.
This is in a small flat rate priority box.
YMMV of course.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Maybe you could locate one of those lead envelopes that we used to use to protect our film from the airport scanners back before digital photography took over.
While this may not be a big problem yet, mylar bag/aluminum foil seems like a simple solution to a potentially expensive problem. Or maybe PCGS/NGC could just have all coins scan as 2001 Lincoln cents in XF40 until a week after shipping. Nobody would bother with those.
Many coins are too estoteric for people to know the real value unless they are familiar with the hobby, of course coins with intrinsic value may be a big issue and there are tell tale signs of real value in a package as well.
Some years ago I dropped off some ebay sales I had packaged at a small rural NH post office, spoke with the clerk a little who said she sells on ebay. There was no tracking for days, I went back to that post office to inquire, then they showed in the system. I don't know if a sharp postal employee could identify a given ebay sale based on the label.
Faraday technology, please explain?
So I don’t know how the PO works but here is my concern. It seems that many ship registered mail and of course get insurance. Of course, the sky’s the limit on the insurance, depending on what is sent. Are the POs controls tight enough to control who has access to said package at any given time, with sig, initials, etc. I am assuming, but we all know how assuming goes! In other words make it very difficult to lift a package by making it very difficult to divert. I am good friends with head person at our little PO. Think I’ll let her walk me through the particulars.
Fortunately I only lost a pocketknife though the mail when I was a youngster and it was insured. No easy chore getting the money back, though.
HB