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Interesting encased Indian Head Cent on eBay last night

DCWDCW Posts: 6,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

Anybody pick this one up on eBay last night? I thought of @ThePennyLady and hope she was able to add this interesting piece to her collection. Probably should have messaged her...


It was a strong result, probably due to the subject matter. What the heck is a "bank exchange saloon" anyway? 😆 sounds like a good way to get hosed out of your money

Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."

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    RampageRampage Posts: 9,418 ✭✭✭✭

    That's a cool piece.

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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have 2 or 3 of these but more simple ones from years ago. Never kept track of them and always thought of them as a $10, $20 item. Guess something has changed a little. Like so many other things.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow... I would have been interested (I like those old encased cents, popular when I was a kid)... but NOT at that price.... Cheers, RickO

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another reason why exonumia is more interesting than collecting coin series by date and mintmark. There are just so many different things out there. You never run out of new things to discover

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lilolme said:
    I have 2 or 3 of these but more simple ones from years ago. Never kept track of them and always thought of them as a $10, $20 item. Guess something has changed a little. Like so many other things.

    I recently sold a few of them. They are still generally $10 or $20 items. I'm not actually sure why that one went for so much.

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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is a really crazy price

    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    jedmjedm Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very strong price. My guess is that someone named Bob Harper or someone from San Angelo Texas, or both is the buyer.

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    tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Definitely a rare merchant but that is a lot of money for a damaged piece (replaced cent). Most experienced exonumia collectors quickly shy away from encased pieces with replaced coins.

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    DCWDCW Posts: 6,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jedm said:
    Very strong price. My guess is that someone named Bob Harper or someone from San Angelo Texas, or both is the buyer.

    Good hypothesis, but a look at the bidding shows four people bidding crazy money. $702, 692, 469, 389.

    That's a lot of Bob's.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

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    DCWDCW Posts: 6,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tokenpro said:
    Definitely a rare merchant but that is a lot of money for a damaged piece (replaced cent). Most experienced exonumia collectors quickly shy away from encased pieces with replaced coins.

    How can you tell the coin was replaced?

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

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    seanqseanq Posts: 8,578 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tokenpro said:

    -- research. Is 1905 the correct coin for the encasement? Most merchants only ordered once so all the encasements should be the same date. Does the date match the merchant? A quick check of my records and verification from tokencatalog shows that Rob. Harper is listed as a saloon owner in directories from 1909-14. tokencatalog also shows that **the coins original to the frame are 1909P Lincoln 1c, not Indian cents. **The site also shows other replaced cents in this frame.

    (edited for unacceptably poor grammar)

    If most of these come with Lincolns, could the Indian cent be the reason why the price was so strong? Assuming the bidders did not realize the coin had been replaced, of course.

    Other than for a key date or variety, how much does the date / condition of the coin in an encasement play into the value of the piece?

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,521 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Love the encased cent but not the price, jmo

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    telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,751 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree the cent looks to have been swapped out. That said...There's nothing that says just because the guy ran a saloon from 1909-14, that there can't conceivably be a 1905 cent in the piece. They were obviously still in circulation at the time and there's no rule that says the storekeeper was obligated to place a then-current year cent into the encasement.


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
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    DCWDCW Posts: 6,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @telephoto1 said:
    I agree the cent looks to have been swapped out. That said...There's nothing that says just because the guy ran a saloon from 1909-14, that there can't conceivably be a 1905 cent in the piece. They were obviously still in circulation at the time and there's no rule that says the storekeeper was obligated to place a then-current year cent into the encasement.

    Absolutely, now if there was a 1915 Lincoln in that baby we would have a "smoking gun." 😆

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2022 8:03AM

    that is one neat piece!

    it is VERY odd that i thought it kinda look liked a replaced cent as well though i'm not saying it is. i wasn't even going to bring it up but a few others have. it'd be neat if there were an old pic or plate to show at least how far back the indian cent goes, if not all the way.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 8,049 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tokenpro said:
    Several potential giveaways on this piece:

    -- the gap between the coin and the holder around most of the obverse and reverse -- when encased are struck the coin is loose in the center hole and the frame expands tightly around the entire coin, often even lapping aluminum over the edge of the coin. The best method to check is to hold the encasement up to a strong light source and see if there are any light gaps around the coin. Grit in the coin/frame gap.

    -- tooling marks from 3 to 5 o'clock obverse and less evident on the reverse

    -- the recession gap from 10 to 2 o'clock obverse, i.e. the cent is not set even in the encasement as they are when originally struck. There also appears to be tooling marks around the hole to help fit the replaced cent in place.

    -- the grade of the cent does not match up well with the wear on the encasement - new cents were used in production and the cents are protected by the frame during their usage life. The cent usually shows much less wear than the holder; au Indians are often found in vf frames. This disparity is not a important diagnostic but often adds to the body of evidence.

    -- research. Is 1905 the correct coin for the encasement? Most merchants only ordered once so all the encasements should be the same date. Does the date match the merchant? A quick check of my records and verification from tokencatalog shows that Rob. Harper is listed as a saloon owner in directories from 1909-14. tokencatalog also shows that the coins original to the frame are 1909P Lincoln 1c, not Indian cents. The site also shows other replaced cents in this frame.

    As I said, that's a lot of money for a replaced cent.

    (edited for unacceptably poor grammar)

    Thanks for the very useful information.

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
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    calgolddivercalgolddiver Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    thanks @tokenpro ... very informative.

    Top 25 Type Set 1792 to present

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    there are some neat youtube videos of those people with presses that can easily punch out and then back in various bi/tri-metallic coin pieces.

    the most recent one i saw was someone flipping the middles around so that they appear backwards so keep your eyes peeled for multi-metallic "errors" and by extension, encased coinage.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    DCWDCW Posts: 6,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sad, that kind of ruins the hobby. These trinkets should be fun and interesting, but when decent money is on the line like in this auction, it brings out the worst in some people.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DCW said:
    Sad, that kind of ruins the hobby. These trinkets should be fun and interesting, but when decent money is on the line like in this auction, it brings out the worst in some people.

    it does also happen for various other reasons. the end result is kinda the same but there are some percentage of this stuff that is done w/o ill intent but i do not argue that most is probably incentivized by monetary gain and in a world with 8 billion people and arguably not enough to go around at the status-quo, as unfortunate as it is, it does make sense why some do it.

    those people on youtube MAY have only been doing it just for views but unless those items are put back right or destroyed, they will probably end up for sale as legit somewhere down the road.

    i'm glad some knowledgeable people chimed in on this piece as it helps some of us recognize and keep an eye out for items we would otherwise pay up for unknowingly (or think we are getting bargain basement prices), so thanks. :)

    hopefully charmy chimes in as well sometime soon.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    DCWDCW Posts: 6,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I do not collect encased coins, but I'm now left wondering how important the coin really is in the grand scheme of things? It would seem to me that the interest lies mainly with the encasement, how stylistic or historic the establishment is. I get originality, but no coin was born in that hole.
    What do you guys think?

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

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    tincuptincup Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭✭✭

    By no means am I an expert on these... but yes, that obverse side just doesn't look right with the fit.

    ----- kj
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    oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DCW said:
    I do not collect encased coins, but I'm now left wondering how important the coin really is in the grand scheme of things? It would seem to me that the interest lies mainly with the encasement, how stylistic or historic the establishment is. I get originality, but no coin was born in that hole.
    What do you guys think?

    I think it matters a great deal especially at the price realized. I don't buy things at all that have been monkeyed with, possibly to mislead.

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    telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,751 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That token didn't bring the price because of the coin; it brought the price because it's a rare merchant/ town and multiple collectors wanted it.


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you make money in these sort of things, originality doesn't matter.

    Thanks for the education!

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.

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