I think I may need a 2nd set of eyes on these.. If disproving, please explain why.
DieHardWithVengence
Posts: 70 ✭
1991 over 1992 year?
Is this pre or post mint damage?
Is this a D over D?
Is this still considered to be a Doubled Die obverse even though it’s not 2 sets of lettering overlapped?
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They are just damaged regular coins. Metal does things like that all the time and often patterns seem to form that people read into even though they are just random occurrences.
Mr_Spud
It may have a tiny bit of machine doubling, but overall the value is probably face.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
I do see the shadow figures on the 1991 quarter, not sure if just transfer from another coin in long proximity or pareidolia. All the rest are PMD.... Cheers, RickO
Just Post Mint Damage as both coins Died Hard many times while circulating for commerce... RIP
@ricko honestly I thought the 1991 was actually stamped over the date of 1892 at first, but the closer I looked at it from opposing viewpoints I could pick out the 9’s but couldn’t really make out anything more than a shadow of an 8.
Damage and Machine doubling and Pareidolia regarding the overdate.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I know that a lot of y’all say Pareidolia for a couple different reasons, either because you legitimately believe it is more common than not, or because it is the only medical term used to refer to someone seeing something that you cannot, or do not acknowledge visually, but I’m asking everyone nicely, please don’t offer that as an excuse/reason for not noticing what I mean, have posted about, or what I am trying to ask about. I have 20/15 vision, and an analytical, logical brain. I do not assume “grey area” shapes or patterns as being something that I am already familiar with even though others may.
It's not enough to say that it must be an error because it looks different. You need to be able to explain how it could have happened in the minting process. Your "logical brain" should be able to understand that.
It seems that you are really just looking for affirmation, not information.
Pareidolia, pure and simple.
@DieHardWithVengence:
a) Do you believe that your coins are in pristine condition exactly as they were produced by the mint?
If not (a) then:
b) Can you point to at least one mark or feature on each coin that you feel happened after the coin left the mint?
If (b) then:
c) Can you describe how the marks that you think are mint errors differ from (b)?
Mint errors happen at the mint. That's what the words mean. If you see something on a coin that could have happened outside the mint, then it is not a mint error.
And yet... you do.
They don't stamp the dates into dies anymore. An overdate like that would be very common in the hub. If it is doubling, the separation is so extreme that it wound have been noticed before.
Congratulations on your vision. Your highly analytical brain needs facts related to coin manufacture to be of any use.
Careful. That triggers him.
@JBK I didn’t say, assume, or question that it was an error, I was merely asking for clarification or identification and an explanation of what I see on these coins. Didn’t ask to be “Doctored” or diagnosed by any non medical professionals.
@IkesT Act your age! Or revert to the golden rule at least.
@jonathanb thank you, I appreciate your insight as to how I may find the answer more clearly in the future and I will keep those questions in mind for my future queries. As to the definition on “Mint Errors,” I am aware that they only happen at the Mint, and that all else would classify as PMD. However, when it comes to identifying all of the more finite details such as the difference between cracks and scratches, I will almost always ask for another to review the area in question in case I am mistaken. What I do know, is that if they were scratches, the edges would appear to have metal curled over from where an object made contact and was dragged across to the point of where it lost contact with the coin, whereby a crack would appear as only a clean separation of the metal even if not occurring in a perfect line.
The following sites provide characteristics of true doubling as well as the characteristics of worthless doubling such as mechanical and die deterioration. Spend some time studying these characteristics and it will help you tremendously. Plus you'll see that members here aren't taking wild guesses, they understand the characteristics of doubling
www.doubleddie.com
www.varietyvista.com
They are also excellent sites to bookmark
@jmlanzaf Are you a Doctor? Do you possess an M.D. and have the ability to administer an eye exam? I think not! So why don’t you stick to the things you do know, and not assume that a person possesses a medical disorder that you have no idea how to identify, diagnose or treat.? Is that fair?
@Oldhoopster Thank you for passing along research material you believe would best be helpful to further my knowledge and understanding. Greatly appreciated..
OK because I'm not a doctor I'm not going to say any medical terms. Sometimes things look like other things kinda sorta. If you look at the clouds you will see.......clouds. but sometimes your brain will think it is something else and you will actually see things in the clouds, sometimes with great detail. It has happened to me many times, mostly out on the deck when I was drinking beer. It is a thing. That is what happens with coins and post mint damage all the time. You can see all sorts of things. It is a valid diagnosis. It is real.
Neither of those statements is accurate.
@dollarfan I am well aware of what Pareidolia is and what types of effects it can have on eyesight, however I’m not the type of lucid person that went outside to stare at clouds for fun. I have 20/15 vision, I don’t drink so there is no possibility that would affect my vision the way it does yours. Also, I did not say that it is not a legitimate disorder that no one suffers from, what I said was that I do not suffer from it.
Read what I wrote carefully. I didn't question your eyesight. I questioned your claims of analysis. Mostly, I was calling out your attitude. Thank you for demonstrating it again.
Pareidolia. Plain and simple. Despite the fact that you think you are too good to manifest it.
You know what I know? Coins. I tried to stay in my lane but a novice keeps questioning me. So maybe you should listen to us instead of lashing out at everyone who uses the P word.
1st rule of errors is to recognize how they could come into being. 99% of coin anomalies are damage.
Pareidolia. The first step to moving past it is recognizing that you are suffering from it.
Pareidolia is not an eyesight issue. It's the way YOUR brain, like everyone else's, processes images.
@jonathanb if you take a knife, put it on a coin, and drag it across the coin, the edges of that scratch will be raised because the metal was pulled and forcibly caused to move. Therefore, as you drag the knife, the metal giving way to the blade will curl at its peak of expansion. A crack on the other hand, happens when a weakness in the metal gives way and separates due to stress from downward or opposing pressures, causing the metal to split apart without causing the edges to raise or curl back on themselves. You can feel a crack because of the separation or lack of continuous surface. Scratches can be felt due to the expansion and addition of surface created as the metal is forced into new places by whatever is making the contact.
It's pretty easy to tell who is here asking questions with a desire to learn something and who isn't. Stop feeding the trolls.
Those comments are accurate for events that happened in the last few minutes. They are not accurate -- or relevant -- for events that happened prior to decades of additional wear and tear.
After further review, the call in the field stands, PM damage
Please set the clock back 1 hour .
Also , a time out deduction will be charged.
@jmlanzaf. You continued to push the issue further, stirring the pot and instigating a negative reaction with your lack of respect after politely being asked not to use that as a point of disagreement. Should I be nice to you after your blatant disregard of my simple request? 🤨🤔 If you could see my face right now, I’d ask you if I looked like I gave a crap what you had to say regardless of your lane, your experience, your prideful egotistical behavior, your lack of respect for others, or your downright “I’m better than you cause I’ve been doing this longer than you” attitude now. People like me, keep people like you in business, so how bout you stick to coins and regain your lost patience for educating those that could actually benefit from your knowledge instead of starting crap for no reason because I questioned you. Give respect, and you shall receive it👍. Demand respect, and you shall receive resistance.
@jmlanzaf Pareidolia is and I quote (pulled from Merriam Webster) “ the tendency to perceive a specific, often meaningful “IMAGE” in a random or ambiguous “VISUAL” pattern.
The scientific explanation for some people is pareidolia, or the human ability to “SEE” shapes or make “PICTURES” out of randomness. Seems to me like it stems from sight first and foremost, then forming into a cerebrate function..
I would say all PMD. I have seen many coins, especially quarters that seem to have an illusion of an extra number or two in the date. They are illusions and not really there.
You can look up the RPM's on variety vista. However, he may not have them all listed, even though he says "complete", there may still be others still to be discovered. What is the date on the wheat cent 194-? My guess is that it is an RPM. I can try to look it up for you.
If you didn't care, you wouldn't yell at everyone who says pareidolia. You seem to think it is some kind of medical defect rather than a universal tendency.
And the lack of respect has come from you. You demand respect but don't give it. Everyone started out by being frank and helpful. You're the one who started ranting against some of those expressed opinions which has resulted in push back from some of us.
As you sow, you shall reap.
Incorrect. If is strictly a visual processing effect. It has nothing to do with seeing something that others don't. It is 100% about the human brain's natural tendency to try to bring order out of chaos. EVERYONE'S brain does it.
Another person (who joined 10 days ago) asking questions and not liking the answers. When will this madness stop?
When there is a subscriber fee to join.
I also love a question that excludes the right answer as a legitimate response. When did the Civil War end, and don't tell me 1865?
@Russell12 You’re darn right I’m asking questions🤨 isn’t that part of what forums are all about? Asking questions amongst a collection of people with similar interests to gain knowledge and understanding? Do you honestly believe that anyone, regardless of how old their profile is, should just take every comment (even the sarcastic, and outright rude ones) that people post without any rebuttal? If something doesn’t make sense to you, do you keep asking questions until it does? Or do you just determine that it’s just too much of an effort to learn about?
In a word: no. Asking questions without listening to the answers is not welcomed elsewhere, and not welcomed here.
I agree with that. It's too bad that we haven't seen the "gaining knowledge" part, in this thread.
Welcome to keyboard warrior Heaven.
@jmlanzaf. So you’re basically saying that a blind & deaf person, who cannot see or hear anything, can still suffer from episodes of Pareidolia because the brain randomly generates images or sounds without first having something to look at or listen to?🤨🤨 You MAY have a higher knowledge of coins sir, however you’re rudimentary argument that Pareidolia is a function of the brain when it is in fact not a brain specific phenomenon is not your forte. That being said, I’m done investing energy in your ridiculous and continuing arrogance and negativity.
@DieHardWithVengence
You should be aware by know that there are a number of members with backgrounds in metalurgy, analytical chemistry, materials science as well as former TPG graders, and top end dealers. Before you dig yourself any deeper, it may be in your best interest to figure out the players before "teaching" everybody. The quality of Your answers will establish your credibility on here, and you may want to continue working on that. Others have established that credibility
@DieHardWithVengence
You claim to be a smart, educated person.
Most smart people realize "You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar"
Any replies you get you should just say "thank you" rather than cause your own demise here.
The members on this board don't owe you any replies.
The members on this board don't owe you an in depth response.
The members on this board don't owe you a polite response.
The members here are not paid to spend their time to educate you.
Your responses will push away the the experts you are wanting a response from and the ones that can help you the most.
Your responses and the way you ask your questions contribute to the answers you receive.
You need to have thick skin to be on a public forum.
You will get a mix of responses on a public forum, you don't get to choose who responds or how they respond.
You say you were just having fun or joking with @ricko but you can't handle it when someone else wants to have a little fun.
You can choose to learn from some very educated people here or you are free to find a better place to educate yourself.
It seems you would rather have your membership here DieHardWithVengence.
This is all kind of basic stuff that an educated person should realize, are you as smart as you claim to be?
I posted it before and I guess I need to post it again.
@ifthevamzarockin. I never said that anyone here owed me anything, I simply and politely asked for a little more than just a simple answer. Some people provided that and then some, to whom I am grateful of, however, the few that chose to pick a bone unprovoked, are no different than classic bullies and I’ll be damned if I’m expected to just stand there and take whatever bs is dished out to me without defending myself. I do not, will not tolerate bullies or being talked down to like my questions don’t matter or anything I ask for is out of line because someone doesn’t have the patience that day, or some wild hair is growing out their pooper. Like I said before and I’ll say it again so you can understand it, give respect, and you shall receive it. Demand respect and you will be met with resistance. Treat others how you want to be treated. Duh!
If a professional does reply, I would hope their demeanor towards myself and my questions would reflect on the level of respect they have for themselves, because a person who respects themselves highly, generally tends to pay the same amount of respect to the people they interact with.
This is the silliest post yet. As I said, it is how YOUR brain interprets IMAGES. I never said it had nothing to do with images. But it has nothing to do with your eyesight. Whatever you see, blurry or clear, is interpreted by your brain and pareidolia happens. You keep quoting your vision ass though that matters. Whether 20/20 or 20/200, pareidolia happens because your brain wants to turn images into familiar objects.
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/why-brain-programmed-see-faces-everyday-objects
You claim you ask questions to learn. That is clearly a falsehood as you argue with every answer that doesn't match your preconception.
If you keep lashing out at people,
you will very quickly burn your last bridge around here. Then where will you live?
Pick a bone unprovoked? You mean like you have over pareidolia.
You are reaping exactly what you are sowing. So I think we understand and agree with you. As soon as you start showing politeness and respect, you'll likely get it in return.
@DieHardWithVengence "I simply and politely asked for a little more"
I could see all this coming from some of your first posts on this forum.
Maybe go back through all your post & treads and see if you can tell where it went wrong.
Take a deep breath and relax. This is a hobby for some and a business for others. Learn to appreciate the information and opinions members give you then decide for yourself the next course of action. If you want to spend $$$ to see if you are right in your opinion, then by all means send your coins to a TPG. I was always taught that if everyone else is wrong and you are the only one right it may be wise to reconsider your position. Either way the choice is yours.
He has 20/15 vision. You can't expect him to see things the way you do.
I think it went wrong here. He fixated on his misunderstanding of Pareidolia and started lashing out at everyone who offered it as the reasoned explanation.
@DieHardWithVengence
To get back to your OP, it's awfully demanding of you to claim a possible new discovery then demand we PROVE YOU WRONG. You should be providing solid data on why you have something extraordinary. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Can you explain why the mark between the 9s doesn't match the correct font used for the date? Can you show that the indistinct figure is anything like the 2 used in the date? Or are you just making a wild guess? If you understand the die making process, you should know that these figures must match EXACTLY. Close, or maybe, or I think, isn't good enough. Once again, take the time to learn the minting and die making processes. Guessing does nothing more than undermine any credibility you may think you have
Will be waiting for your proof. Best of luck