MS versus Proof Grading

lilolme

Reading another thread it made me think about the differences of MS and Proof grading. But then I wondered are they the same?

That is if there was a proof coin and it had the same contact marks as a typical MS would it grade the same. Example a proof Morgan dollar with the typical contact marks of a MS64 Morgan dollar. My initial though is that it is still a 64 except it is a proof or proof 64. But that is going to be one beat up looking proof 64 Morgan dollar compared to the typical proof 64.

Going the other direction if a MS Morgan dollar only had the hairlines/hairline patches of a typical proof Morgan dollar and no other contact marks would it still grade the same as the proof? This one seems a little more difficult since the hairlines could be right on the focal point and just as easy to view on the MS versus the proof. But the hairlines could also be in the MS field where they would be more difficult to see on the non-proof or non-prooflike field of the MS (assuming it is not a PL). Then that would be one clean looking MS64 and I would guess it would grade higher.

So summary is that normally the MS and proof coin experience different handling environments. But if they each saw the others handling environment would the grading be the same?

Just another example of my imagination running away with...

FlyingAl

No, proofs are graded entirely differently.

The proof you describe would likely details grade (marks of an MS64).

The MS coin you describe (hairlines of a PR64) would likely go very high MS (67 and above).

lilolme

@FlyingAl said:
No, proofs are graded entirely differently.

The proof you describe would likely details grade (marks of an MS64).

The MS coin you describe (hairlines of a PR64) would likely go very high MS (67 and above).

I would agree but only partially to this.
There are circulated proofs with contact marks and wear and they are not details grade. So I am thinking the contact marks would not details grade the proof coin. Or I could just put some rub on it and get a straight grade AU.

LanceNewmanOCC

strike has on average is an important part of getting higher unc grades for ms coins whereas since most proofs are (from my understanding) struck more than once, have on average, a lot better detail and will probably pull 2-3 grades higher than an ms counterpart (not the old stuff due to mishandling, misstorage and the surfaces being much more delicate) and since they (generally speaking) were handed better post strike but still in the mint or a packing facility, have far less contact marks so even before grading, they are just generally superior. there is plenty of nuance and exceptions by year, decade, mint etc.

i don't recall reading/hearing that proof coins were just tossed into bins, barrels, tubs etc like the ms coins.

but lets say there are 2 equal coins one ms and one proof with virtually the exact same marks, spots, toning etc, the proof should always pull at least 1-2 grades higher simply because it was made with more time, care, effort, money etc.

FlyingAl

@lilolme said:

@FlyingAl said:
No, proofs are graded entirely differently.

The proof you describe would likely details grade (marks of an MS64).

The MS coin you describe (hairlines of a PR64) would likely go very high MS (67 and above).

I would agree but only partially to this.
There are circulated proofs with contact marks and wear and they are not details grade. So I am thinking the contact marks would not details grade the proof coin. Or I could just put some rub on it and get a straight grade AU.

I would disagree with this. If this is the answer you were looking for, your question is flawed. Proofs grade below 60 due to wear, not marks. Can contact marks detail a proof with no wear? Absolutely, and it will. Proofs are held to a much higher standard than MS coins.

You asked about a proof with no wear and the marks that an MS64 would have. If that coin doesn't detail for damage, then I'd be shocked if it wasn't a mechanical error on the label. If you can find a picture of such a proof in a straight grade holder, I'd be really impressed.

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
strike has on average is an important part of getting higher unc grades for ms coins whereas since most proofs are (from my understanding) struck more than once, have on average, a lot better detail and will probably pull 2-3 grades higher than an ms counterpart (not the old stuff due to mishandling, misstorage and the surfaces being much more delicate) and since they (generally speaking) were handed better post strike but still in the mint or a packing facility, have far less contact marks so even before grading, they are just generally superior. there is plenty of nuance and exceptions by year, decade, mint etc.

i don't recall reading/hearing that proof coins were just tossed into bins, barrels, tubs etc like the ms coins.

but lets say there are 2 equal coins one ms and one proof with virtually the exact same marks, spots, toning etc, the proof should always pull at least 1-2 grades higher simply because it was made with more time, care, effort, money etc.

I would also disagree with this Lance for the reason above. Proofs have higher standards of quality when grading. MS coins will almost always get higher grades with many more marks. I have a PR65 sitting on my desk with 0 contact marks (one patch of hairlines). It would grade 68 or 69 if it was an MS coin.

Jzyskowski1

There’s been some mighty ugly proofs in the last couple years and graded 67-66 from the mint. Can’t put my finger on where I saw this. But definitely proofs can and are graded lower than 67-70. The Redbook starts at pf65 when giving values, unreliable as they are 😁

lilolme

@FlyingAl said:

@lilolme said:

@FlyingAl said:
No, proofs are graded entirely differently.

The proof you describe would likely details grade (marks of an MS64).

The MS coin you describe (hairlines of a PR64) would likely go very high MS (67 and above).

I would agree but only partially to this.
There are circulated proofs with contact marks and wear and they are not details grade. So I am thinking the contact marks would not details grade the proof coin. Or I could just put some rub on it and get a straight grade AU.

I would disagree with this. If this is the answer you were looking for, your question is flawed. Proofs grade below 60 due to wear, not marks. Can contact marks detail a proof with no wear? Absolutely, and it will. Proofs are held to a much higher standard than MS coins.

You asked about a proof with no wear and the marks that an MS64 would have. If that coin doesn't detail for damage, then I'd be shocked if it wasn't a mechanical error on the label. If you can find a picture of such a proof in a straight grade holder, I'd be really impressed.

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
strike has on average is an important part of getting higher unc grades for ms coins whereas since most proofs are (from my understanding) struck more than once, have on average, a lot better detail and will probably pull 2-3 grades higher than an ms counterpart (not the old stuff due to mishandling, misstorage and the surfaces being much more delicate) and since they (generally speaking) were handed better post strike but still in the mint or a packing facility, have far less contact marks so even before grading, they are just generally superior. there is plenty of nuance and exceptions by year, decade, mint etc.

i don't recall reading/hearing that proof coins were just tossed into bins, barrels, tubs etc like the ms coins.

but lets say there are 2 equal coins one ms and one proof with virtually the exact same marks, spots, toning etc, the proof should always pull at least 1-2 grades higher simply because it was made with more time, care, effort, money etc.

I would also disagree with this Lance for the reason above. Proofs have higher standards of quality when grading. MS coins >will almost always get higher grades with many more marks. I have a PR65 sitting on my desk with 0 contact marks (one >patch of hairlines). It would grade 68 or 69 if it was an MS coin.

You get a little wound up on this stuff it seems. Maybe not as it could just be as it reads. I am just making conversation and not trying to do anything else.

I am not looking for any answer and there is no flaw in the question which was summarize as:
So summary is that normally the MS and proof coin experience different handling environments. But if they each saw the others handling environment would the grading be the same?

So your answer is - No. They are different. And as I stated I partially agree to what you noted.

Yes I have seen contact marks on proof coins that graded 60 or above. Perhaps a baggy 64 would details grade as a proof but how about a 64 that is fairly clean with only light contact and frost breaks. If that details, then as I noted above I could put some rub/wear on the coin and then it would be similar to some proof 50 - that is AU type wear and some contact marks from the wear/circulation. Of course proof coins grade below 60 due to wear but most often along with that wear they get some circulation contact marks to go along with the wear.

So if the contact marks will detail grade a proof 60 or above, then at what level of contact marks is that. How about a clean MS65 type contact marks, will that details grade a proof?

This question came to me when looking at this thread about the FE and being a proof. I wondered if sent in to cross to a proof what grade it would receive as a proof. It was graded NGC MS65+.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1083636/1858-small-letters-flying-eagle-proof#latest

PS - I still agree that a MS coin with typical proof hairlines would probably grade higher as a MS. Maybe not if all the lines were right on the focal point.

Here is one Morgan that I would wonder about if it was a MS. It is a Proof 65+.
It has some contact marks and just about all the proof grading appears to be in the focal area or Liberty. Of course there can be unseen hairlines in the fields also. While this would be a clean MS in the fields I wonder how all the lines and marks in the focal area would grade on a MS.

davewesen

fields are different in higher MS vs Proof

MS have more luster while proof have deeper fields

lilolme

Proof 61


.
These two show some contact marks which could be associated with the circulation wear.
Proof 50

Proof 58

FlyingAl

MS67:

PR67:

For what it's worth, here's a MS61:

I just don't think comparing the two grading systems is worthwhile. I suppose it could be me . I do appreciate the conversation!

ricko

My observations, and discussions here over the years, indicates that proofs and MS coins are graded differently. Cheers, RickO

jmlanzaf

@FlyingAl said:
No, proofs are graded entirely differently.

The proof you describe would likely details grade (marks of an MS64).

The MS coin you describe (hairlines of a PR64) would likely go very high MS (67 and above).

This simply can not be true or there would be no PR61 or PR62 coins.

A bag mark is not damage on a proof coin. It's still a bag mark. I do think proof coins end up being graded more harshly, but to some extent that is more about visuals than standards. Strike is stronger so a "normal" MS-level strike is viewed more harshly on a Proof coin. And marks can be more distracting on proof coins, especially modern cameos.

spyglassdesign

I would think they would have to be graded differently. Eye appeal is a factor in grading. A business strike can still have great eye appeal with many marks, however a proof could have much less eye appeal with just a few marks due to the way the field and devices are finished (smooth VS frosty etc).

For that reason alone (I would expect there's other reasons too), I would think it would be much harder for a marked proof to get a higher rating than the same marked business strike. Just from a logic standpoint.

Additionally, just using pictures doesn't tell the whole story. Pictures never tell the whole story of a coin (this was one of the very first things I learned when I started collecting). Having coins in hand is the only true way to tell what it looks like. I've seen coins that look like dogs in picture but gorgeous in hand and vice versa.

lilolme

@jmlanzaf said:

@FlyingAl said:
No, proofs are graded entirely differently.

The proof you describe would likely details grade (marks of an MS64).

The MS coin you describe (hairlines of a PR64) would likely go very high MS (67 and above).

This simply can not be true or there would be no PR61 or PR62 coins.

A bag mark is not damage on a proof coin. It's still a bag mark. I do think proof coins end up being graded more harshly, but to some extent that is more about visuals than standards. Strike is stronger so a "normal" MS-level strike is viewed more harshly on a Proof coin. And marks can be more distracting on proof coins, especially modern cameos.

I was out a couple days so a little slow to respond.

I agree and this is kind of where I was on this. There are proof with contact marks and as noted straight graded. However, there are less of them often due to better handling. So you see much fewer of them. See the FE thread, I wondered how the FE would grade from a MS to a proof. I simply don't have the data, previous experience with or guides on how a proof could/would be graded with more typical MS contact marks. As I noted in the OP, first thought was the same but then that could/would produce some beat up looking proofs for the grade. Anyone know of a guide. Well this certainly will Not keep me up at nights.

lilolme

@FlyingAl said:
MS67:

PR67:

For what it's worth, here's a MS61:

I just don't think comparing the two grading systems is worthwhile. I suppose it could be me . I do appreciate the conversation!

Just saw your post - I just want to note that I posted the photo of the Proof 65+ and the Proof 61 and the Proof 50 and 58 in relation to your previous response of:

"You asked about a proof with no wear and the marks that an MS64 would have. If that coin doesn't detail for damage, then I'd be shocked if it wasn't a mechanical error on the label. If you can find a picture of such a proof in a straight grade holder, I'd be really impressed."

As l noted in the response above, proofs with contact marks similar to those of MS coins do show up sometimes in straight graded holders. I was wondering how the previous MS FE would grade as proof if it crossed to a proof. As I said above I don't know. But that is the reason for me starting the discussion and why I think it could be worthwhile understanding how a proof coin with contact marks is graded.

FlyingAl

@lilolme said:

@FlyingAl said:
MS67:

PR67:

For what it's worth, here's a MS61:

I just don't think comparing the two grading systems is worthwhile. I suppose it could be me . I do appreciate the conversation!

Just saw your post - I just want to note that I posted the photo of the Proof 65+ and the Proof 61 and the Proof 50 and 58 in relation to your previous response of:

"You asked about a proof with no wear and the marks that an MS64 would have. If that coin doesn't detail for damage, then I'd be shocked if it wasn't a mechanical error on the label. If you can find a picture of such a proof in a straight grade holder, I'd be really impressed."

As l noted in the response above, proofs with contact marks similar to those of MS coins do show up sometimes in straight graded holders. I was wondering how the previous MS FE would grade as proof if it crossed to a proof. As I said above I don't know. But that is the reason for me starting the discussion and why I think it could be worthwhile understanding how a proof coin with contact marks is graded.

Sure, and this makes sense. I’d say usually lower. However, most proofs have mirrors that accentuate marks and make them appear much worse than a MS coin (usually). It’ll have to be case by case, in hand.

Jzyskowski1

Then there’s the factoid that proofs get milk spots and MS get spotty blotchy different look stain like spots. Not saying proofs don’t get some strange spots but MS doesn’t seem to have milk spots. I think an example of mirrored fields versus uncirculated surfaces. 😁
Just up late, thinking about this thread 🥱

lilolme

Well up late here also but about time to call it a night.

I can remember seeing a proof Morgan and I believe it was a 65 cam or dcam. Beautiful look to it but had two contact marks, both small, on jaw and other neck. My eye just went right to them. There would have been other typical proof type grading hairlines that I don't recall or noticed. I have seen a few others. But the point here was they caught the eye. So how to grade these proofs with MS type contact marks. If the same it would seem to be too much as they stand out more (at least on the cam area). I just never thought about it because one seems to not encounter it much.