Home U.S. Coin Forum
Options

Opinions wanted on a Lafayette dollar

BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 12, 2022 10:08AM in U.S. Coin Forum

What's your opinion of this coin as to its wear and quality? I bought this Lafayette dollar over a decade ago after convincing myself it was real and had a good chance to straight grade. I still feel that way.

This coin is now at our host being graded, and the grade is soon to be announced. I thought it would be fun to solicit some opinions now and then compare against the actual grade when released. It'll be released any day now.

3 rim nicks away from Good
«1

Comments

  • Options
    MWallaceMWallace Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Options
    P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hope I’m wrong, but I’ll guess counterfeit

    Nothing is as expensive as free money.

  • Options
    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would be very surprised if it comes back as a counterfeit.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • Options
    CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,603 ✭✭✭✭✭

    WAG 50. Lots of grime! :)

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • Options
    WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Obverse AU58, reverse AU55, I'd say net would be AU55, IMO.

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • Options
    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My guess would be AU55.... Nice old coin. Cheers, RickO

  • Options
    lermishlermish Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great looking coin and nice quality pics! I guess real also, AU53

  • Options
    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    40

  • Options
    SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭✭✭

    55

  • Options
    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 714 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I find this a very attractive coin. These come cleaned often, so it is good to see this circulated piece with attractive toning. AU-50

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • Options
    jughead1893jughead1893 Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭✭✭

    50

  • Options
    AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,536 ✭✭✭✭✭

    45, nice pocket carried and commerce used example. Dirt looks original.
    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • Options
    Project NumismaticsProject Numismatics Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭✭✭

    AU50. These did circulate more than most classic commemoratives.

    DLRC has a very similar example graded XF 45 CAC for sale right now.

  • Options
    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    45

    will be higher if there is luster which I can not see with the toning

  • Options
    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With no evidence of toning, XF45. Has a good look to it.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • Options
    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If it doesn't come back with environmental damage, I'd guess XF40 or 45.

    peacockcoins

  • Options
    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2022 5:19PM

    @P0CKETCHANGE said:

    @Barberian said:
    I would be very surprised if it comes back as a counterfeit.

    I will preface this by admitting that I have no experience whatsoever with Lafayette dollars. I’ve never owned one, and I don’t think I’ve ever even looked at one in-hand. What I’m seeing may just be due to the photograph quality, lighting, or some other explanation. I may be (and hopefully am) mistaken with my conclusion, which no one has agreed with.

    The main reason I arrived at “counterfeit” is the porosity of metal that is evident on various parts of the coin, including the central devices (horse’s shoulder, rider’s boots, etc.) and—especially—the rims. Metal porosity is a characteristic sometimes exhibited by counterfeits, and none of the other Lafayette dollars on CoinFacts display it.

    Some of the coin detail appears unusually lacking in detail to me (rider’s torso, the ends of the horse’s tail, etc.) as if struck by a cast die rather than an original one. The wear patterns and high points also don’t quite seem consistent when comparing against other examples on CoinFacts that exhibit wear, which could be a sign of artificial aging.

    When I first looked at the coin my impression was counterfeit, but acknowledging my inexperience, I dismissed it initially. Then I reread your comments and noted you had to “convince yourself” it was real, which made me think perhaps you had a similar initial reaction, although in seeking out evidence we each arrived at different conclusions.

    You may be correct as well. I'm only saying that I'd be surprised and would want to see evidence of this.
    The dies are 2 and C and they're clearly marked. The surfaces show extensive die polish lines. The lettering is appropriate. I scrutinized it pretty well. As I said, I'd be surprised if it's counterfeit.

    What I see, I believe, is some corrosion and porosity along portions of the rim, and the high points of the reverse Lafayette silhouette appear to be etched rather than worn. PVC soft flips? I'm wondering if the rim corrosion is sufficient to prevent it from straight grading. We'll see shortly.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • Options
    cheezhedcheezhed Posts: 5,686 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2022 5:20PM

    The crust looks off to me? Environmental damage? Love the Lafayettes and yet to acquire one.

    Many happy BST transactions
  • Options
    MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    AU50.

  • Options
    DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,963 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:
    Great looking coin and nice quality pics! I guess real also, AU53

    My thoughts too!

    When in doubt, don't.
  • Options
    ARCOARCO Posts: 4,311 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not a pro, so be kind to my opinion.

    I would say 1) AU50. 2) Genuine, 3) cool original toning.

    It will grade at PCGS.

  • Options
    MrBlusterMrBluster Posts: 320 ✭✭✭

    My guess au50 really like the old toning

  • Options
    tommy44tommy44 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    45

    it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

  • Options
    CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,919 ✭✭✭✭✭

    45 and I like it.

  • Options
    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,481 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The sharpness is Choice EF, but it’s been recolored to make it look as it does now. I have seen this on Lafayette Dollars before. It’s an okay example in a circulated grade, but it’s not choice.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Options
    TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2022 5:35PM

    @BillJones said:
    The sharpness is Choice EF, but it’s been recolored to make it look as it does now. I have seen this on Lafayette Dollars before. It’s an okay example in a circulated grade, but it’s not choice.

    I fully agree with Bill Jones on recoloring on this one. Nothing like 40 years of experience (which, as a collector, I do not have) to recognize it. John Albanese once refused to CAC an under-graded 1804 quarter that I had in an older holder with similar toning. When I questioned him about it, he said it was processed and that that type of process, which stripped the coin down and then darkly re-toned it, had been used by coin doctors for many years, and that if I ever saw that type of toning on a coin, I should stay away from it. For example, look at the rims, especially at 3 o'clock on both of the OP's photos, which is indicative of a processed coin, IMO.

    Here is an example, below, that I recently purchased raw that graded AU-53 and it is fully original. The OP's piece has a little more reverse detail and a little less obverse detail than mine, to my eye. They look to be the same variety as well, which I believe is the common variety 1-B. I would call yours AU-50 detail, and it could straight grade, but I suspect it would come back as environmental damage or AT.

    Tom

  • Options
    Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a a pic of the real one and the O.Ps coin that looks a bit off to me. But you never know.





    Hoard the keys.
  • Options
    TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hmmm.. You might be right.

    Tom

  • Options
    edwardjulioedwardjulio Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The (A) in Lafayette on the OP coin points to the edge of a dentil, on the other coin it points the center of the dentil.

    End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us

  • Options
    alefzeroalefzero Posts: 869 ✭✭✭✭✭

    XF45 DuValle-2C

  • Options
    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,425 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would say 50 but there is no luster so I'm going with 45.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

  • Options
    shishshish Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭✭✭

    AU-50

    Liberty Seated and Trade Dollar Specialist
  • Options
    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    I would say 50 but there is no luster so I'm going with 45.

    It actually has nice luster and cartwheels easily.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • Options
    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2022 2:57PM

    @Type2 said:
    Here is a a pic of the real one and the O.Ps coin that looks a bit off to me. But you never know.



    Those are different reverse varieties. Mine is a reverse C. The other shown is reverse B, and is likely paired with obverse 1, to give "DuValle 1B," the most common die marriage.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • Options
    TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @alefzero said:
    XF45 DuValle-2C

    I think I agree with that. I was incorrect and it looks like the 2-C, which is quite scarce.

    Tom

  • Options
    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not really. The 2C is the second most common die marriage with about 39% of coins released.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • Options
    TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2022 5:29PM

    Hmm. Well, looks like I am incorrect again. I took it from this, which at least at one time, was taken from PCGS's website on Coin Facts, I think.
    1-A: Scarce
    1-B: Most often seen variety
    1-C: Very rare. Reported by Anthony Swiatek in 1980.
    2-C: Rare.
    3-D: Very rare.
    4-E: Very rare.
    But I do recall seeing other postings, perhaps here, that indicated that it is not scarce. And a search of Heritage's website shows a lot of 2-Cs as well, so I defer to you on that issue. And in addition, it does not appear that the scarcer varieties carry much of a premium, though perhaps this is changing. I researched it pretty thoroughly back in June when I purchased my above shown piece.
    So, what is your opinion? Is it real (I think so) and has it been recolored in your opinion?

    Tom

  • Options
    yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,594 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2022 7:15PM

    The more accurate variety frequencies were indeed posted on this forum by @alefzero , in October:

    1A: 34 (4%)
    1B: 448 (53%)

    [ 1C does not exist ]

    2C: 283 (34%)
    3D: 70 (8%)
    4E: 4 (1%)

    The descriptive variety text pages on PCGS CoinFacts have not been actively maintained/updated for several years now, so it misses some good updates sometimes.

    from:
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13348129#Comment_13348129

  • Options
    dhikewhitneydhikewhitney Posts: 361 ✭✭✭

    Cleaned, EF45

  • Options
    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2022 3:59PM

    @TPRC said:
    So, what is your opinion? Is it real (I think so) and has it been recolored in your opinion?

    This was written 11/16/2022 5:31 AM EST:
    I think it's a real 2-C as evidenced by die markers and die polish lines. The toning? I don't know, but I think it may have been artificially enhanced. If it grades, I think it will grade >AU53 because it has strong luster. I got tired of looking at it cart-wheeling in my hand and wanted to see if it will do the same in a TPG holder.

    If it gets body-bagged, it'll be because of the porosity along the rims from being in a corrosive environment crosses a "line" and prevents it from straight-grading. You don't see the porosity as much when tilting the coin to get it to cartwheel nicely.
    Your second-hand comments from JA and BillJones's comments here ring true to me here. This could be a processed coin (whatever that is) that I bought years ago because of the toning, and I'm about to be disappointed that it won't straight grade.

    @P0CKETCHANGE said:

    @Barberian said:
    I would be very surprised if it comes back as a counterfeit.

    The main reason I arrived at “counterfeit” is the porosity of metal that is evident on various parts of the coin, including the central devices (horse’s shoulder, rider’s boots, etc.) and—especially—the rims. Metal porosity is a characteristic sometimes exhibited by counterfeits, and none of the other Lafayette dollars on CoinFacts display it.

    When I first looked at the coin my impression was counterfeit, but acknowledging my inexperience, I dismissed it initially. Then I reread your comments and noted you had to “convince yourself” it was real, which made me think perhaps you had a similar initial reaction, although in seeking out evidence we each arrived at different conclusions.

    >
    Actually, I checked to see if it was counterfeit because I had just purchased a book on counterfeit coins that told me that Lafayette dollars were frequently counterfeited by die transfer, so I checked it for bubbles, irregularities, presence of sharp die lines (lacking on fakes), hairlines (none), probably ring tested it, etc. Anyway, I convinced myself it was real, a DuValle 2C.

    Now, we'll all find out if it'll grade.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • Options
    P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Barberian said:
    The grade for the Lafayette has finally been posted. I wasn't confident that it would straight grade because of rim corrosion and dark, crusty toning. Apparently, the corrosion wasn't severe enough to body bag for environmental damage, because it straight graded at AU50.

    Thanks everyone for posting excellent comments about the coin. I sincerely appreciated all of them. I thought that it would either grade 92 (environmental damage) or AU53-AU55 because of the underlying luster and lack of hairlines. I'm certainly pleased with AU50.

    @TPRC your Lafayette is beautiful, a CAC sticker worthy coin that is much nicer than my "C" coin by far, and I think the grades for each reflect that difference. I should have exercised more patience in selecting my Lafayette. It was the first raw coin I'd seen that looked good to me, I liked dark toning back then when I won it (still do), and I won it for a low price. However, I've since learned a thing or two about corrosion (e.g., PVC), darker toning and the evils that may lurk underneath. I'll likely profit when it comes time to sell, but if I were buying today, I'd be looking for a coin with nice rims and surfaces like your coin has.

    I'll post the TruView as soon as it's released.

    Nice result and grade. Thanks for the update, and I’m glad I was wrong about the authenticity.

    Nothing is as expensive as free money.

  • Options
    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,531 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Before I saw the last post I was going to guess AU50, honest :D

    I like the coin - most raw Lafayettes are badly messed with in my experience.

  • Options
    TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Barberian said:
    Congrats!

    Tom

  • Options
    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lordmarcovan said:
    Crusty! I like the obverse. Am a teeny bit lukewarm on the reverse. Good luck on the grade!

    That Pan-Pac half is awesome! That's what I'd call "antique patina" for sure.

    I just recently bought my first Lafayette dollar.

    https://www.pcgs.com/cert/45035213

    My Lafayette graded AU50 (Trueview below). Your DuValle 2C puts mine to shame! Beautiful coin! I noticed it on your coin display website and was quite envious. ;)

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • Options
    jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good job! I definitely don't see it as an AU with no luster. I see it as XF details - environmental damage. But could see straight grading at XF45.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file