Home U.S. Coin Forum

St Gaudens experts “dropped R” error

johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭✭✭

Anyone know about this coin?
No pop records
Seller wants $19k plus
I’ve googled every which way and searched forums with no luck on more information.

Rare?


Comments

  • GoldenEggGoldenEgg Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From what character in the die is it? It looks too small to be from “LIBERTY” on the obverse, or the two R’s on the reverse…

    I would say it might just be damage.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2022 7:15AM

    @GoldenEgg said:
    From what character in the die is it? It looks too small to be from “LIBERTY” on the obverse, or the two R’s on the reverse…

    I would say it might just be damage.

    No idea??

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree it is too small to match the other R's on the coin and the leg of the R is square rather than pointed.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just a hit from the edge of another coin, similar to a reeding mark. Not a mint error and shouldn’t be holdered as such…

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,392 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    Possibly just a bag mark from the R of PLURIBUS on the edge of a different coin.

    Exactly. I've seen this before. The letters on the edge of Saints are in fairly high relief and will impart a mirror image of the letter if the coin drops on the field of another coin. It's just another contact mark although it's interesting.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with the above explanation... Edge hit... but a nice one. Cheers, RickO

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    I agree with the above explanation... Edge hit... but a nice one. Cheers, RickO

    It is nice and cool but apparently not worth the $19k they want.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @johnny010 ... TOTALLY agree with that.... Price wanted is outrageous, unjustified and a figment of sellers imagination. Cheers, RickO

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    @johnny010 ... TOTALLY agree with that.... Price wanted is outrageous, unjustified and a figment of sellers imagination. Cheers, RickO

    I offered $5k. Let’s see what happens.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2022 8:14AM

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    I agree it is too small to match the other R's on the coin and the leg of the R is square rather than pointed.

    .
    nice. thanks for saving me a step or 2!

    it threw me off at first as i compared the edge lettering to some edge lettering pres dollars i shot a long time ago but the letters on the $20 are going clockwise while the pres dollars go counter. thankfully i had a image of one that was POS A over POS b.


    .
    .

    edit to add the obvious. someone could have just done this themselves with 2 $20 coins. hold on in one hand and simply bang it into the other coin laying flat. ;)

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This should be returned to PCGS as it is misdescribed and just damage.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,541 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,734 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't own a St. Gaudens double eagle so I tried to search the webs for the answer but only found some photos that only suggested an answer...

    Is the edge lettering on these coins incuse or in relief? If it is in relief, couldn't it still be a dropped letter from the collar?

  • pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cool error coin.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,679 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting!

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2022 12:26PM

    @JBK said:
    Is the edge lettering on these coins incuse or in relief?

    It is not incuse it is in relief or raised off the edge of the coin.
    Here's one I have I hope the photo shows it good enough. ;)

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,734 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ifthevamzarockin said:

    @JBK said:
    Is the edge lettering on these coins incuse or in relief?

    It is not incuse it is in relief or raised off the edge of the coin.
    Here's one I have I hope the photo shows it good enough. ;)

    Thx for the photo.

    So, couldn't the edge lettering collar get a plugged letter that subsequently falls out?

    (The OP's photo is good but on my screen I can't really tell for sure if it's an incuse R or a struck-in R.)

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2022 1:15PM

    @JBK said:
    So, couldn't the edge lettering collar get a plugged letter that subsequently falls out?

    that is good thinking and unless i am missing something, it certainly isn't impossible.

    now i wonder if there is a way to "authenticate" a dropped letter vs someone doing it on their own.

    i wonder if there is too much curve or not enough curve to the edge and lettering that the edge can hit something enough w/o any partial letters or parts of the rim being visible. someone will have to test this with one of their coins with something soft or perhaps "eyeballing" it will be sufficient?

    the coin(s) previously would be missing the R on the edge but if the full letter dropped out before this coin and there is a full R visible on the coin, so it hypothetically would have then there would again be a full R on the edge of this coin and the next.

    edited to add: due to gravity, the odds of the collar or whatever imparts the edge lettering getting enough crud at once or incrementally to fill a letter is pretty low i would say but again, theoretically, not impossible.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK "So, couldn't the edge lettering collar get a plugged letter that subsequently falls out?"

    @LanceNewmanOCC "the odds of the collar or whatever imparts the edge lettering getting enough crud at once or incrementally to fill a letter is pretty low i would say but again, theoretically, not impossible."

    "i wonder if there is too much curve or not enough curve to the edge and lettering that the edge can hit something enough w/o any partial letters or parts of the rim being visible"

    I was thinking along a similar line of a letter being sheared off the edge upon ejection but the odds of that vs. a contact hit are quite high I would think. This is a great example of where Occam's Razor comes into play. Contact marks from reeding is very common on many series.

    Lance, Just from looking at my coin I would say there is too much curve to see other partial letters. ;)

  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @johnny010 said:

    @ricko said:
    @johnny010 ... TOTALLY agree with that.... Price wanted is outrageous, unjustified and a figment of sellers imagination. Cheers, RickO

    I offered $5k. Let’s see what happens.

    How were you able to make an offer on a coin from APMEX? I didn’t know that was possible, and there’s no “make an offer” option on the ebay listing?

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/115598437892

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,734 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2022 2:30PM

    If it is a contact mark then the letter on the obverse would be incuse.

    If it is a dropped letter than it is essentially a retained struck through and would be flush with the surface.

    Yes? (Just trying to think this through).

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,541 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    If it is a contact mark then the letter on the obverse would be incuse.

    If it is a dropped letter than it is essentially a retained struck through and would be flush with the surface.

    Yes? (Just trying to think this through).

    No, a dropped letter will get pushed down into the surface of the coin, leaving an incuse letter.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    @JBK said:
    If it is a contact mark then the letter on the obverse would be incuse.

    If it is a dropped letter than it is essentially a retained struck through and would be flush with the surface.

    Yes? (Just trying to think this through).

    No, a dropped letter will get pushed down into the surface of the coin, leaving an incuse letter.

    .
    and then fall out. just so it was said

    that is a neat line of thought though because other stuff gets struck through and retained. i don't recall seeing a retained dropped letter. now THAT'D be rare.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,734 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2022 3:41PM

    @CaptHenway said:

    @JBK said:
    If it is a contact mark then the letter on the obverse would be incuse.

    If it is a dropped letter than it is essentially a retained struck through and would be flush with the surface.

    Yes? (Just trying to think this through).

    No, a dropped letter will get pushed down into the surface of the coin, leaving an incuse letter.

    In my scenario it was a retained struck through, which would be flush. I have no idea how common it is for a dropped letter to be retained, though. (Maybe it is not common.) If it fell out then what was left would be an incuse letter, as you mentioned.

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So, it is worth a premium. That is my first question answered. That's nice to know.
    But I am still not sure how it was made. I assume that it is incuse in the field of the coin. if so that makes sense. If the edge lettering is raised, and the mark in the field is raised, where does it come from? But if the mark in the field is incuse, as it looks on the Coin Facts photos, then it is just an edge hit and it is not an error.

    Tom

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,734 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TPRC said:
    So, it is worth a premium. That is my first question answered. That's nice to know.
    But I am still not sure how it was made. I assume that it is incuse in the field of the coin. if so that makes sense. If the edge lettering is raised, and the mark in the field is raised, where does it come from? But if the mark in the field is incuse, as it looks on the Coin Facts photos, then it is just an edge hit and it is not an error.

    I think something is being lost in translation...

    Here's my understanding:

    If the letter is incuse on the on the obverse it is one of two things:

    1) a hit from the edge of another coin. In this scenario it is "damage" and has no additional value.

    2) it is a dropped letter, and based on it's shape and size it is "dropped" from the edge lettering collar. Metal got stuck in the letter on the "die" which in this case is the lettered collar, and then dropped out to be struck into the coin.

    For #2 above, if the letter is flush with the surface, it is a retained dropped letter (apparently not at all common). If the letter is incuse, then the dropped letter fell out after striking.

    Differentiating between #1, and unretained #2 is beyond my pay grade (although I suspect if there is slight deformation that might point to a dropped letter).

    If the letter is raised on the surface of the coin then you're on your own. ;)

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TPRC said:
    So, it is worth a premium. That is my first question answered. That's nice to know.
    But I am still not sure how it was made. I assume that it is incuse in the field of the coin. if so that makes sense. If the edge lettering is raised, and the mark in the field is raised, where does it come from? But if the mark in the field is incuse, as it looks on the Coin Facts photos, then it is just an edge hit and it is not an error.

    This is true.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2022 4:50PM

    the way you can usually know if something is raised or incuse is the shadows and/or lighting around other devices near the area in question.

    if you look at the full size image, you see the shadow on the LEFT side of all the devices, from LIB, lady liberty, sun rays etc. (in this instance)

    obviously when more than one light is used or too much brightness etc, it becomes a little more challenging but imo, the R is incuse. the shadow you see is from the left side of the circle of the top of the R, indicating the circle is raised casting a shadow from right to left. kinda more like northeast to southwest. k2 to k8.

    edited to add, the light(s) is at a steep angle, kinda getting close to noon, so shadows are only big on really high edges, which the R doesn't really have any of.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Larger images..... looks like a lot of contact marks for a 65 grade. :#


  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1madman said:

    @johnny010 said:

    @ricko said:
    @johnny010 ... TOTALLY agree with that.... Price wanted is outrageous, unjustified and a figment of sellers imagination. Cheers, RickO

    I offered $5k. Let’s see what happens.

    How were you able to make an offer on a coin from APMEX? I didn’t know that was possible, and there’s no “make an offer” option on the ebay listing?

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/115598437892

    I emailed them to add pictures and they replied that they were sorry it took so long and updated the photos after two days.

    I then emailed them that I’d make an offer of $5k for the coin and then raised my email offer to $6k. They replied back that their coin prices are set and not negotiable due to company policy. Very long standard reply that someone copy and pasted.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file