Egregiously Deceptive Stock Photos... I imagine the buyer won't be so pleased
airplanenut
Posts: 22,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
I saw this coin in an eBay search and opened up the listing. The coin looked great for a 53--perhaps too great--and I wondered if there were any larger photos instead of just the slab shots. When I noticed the slab photo has a generic sample label, I looked some more and found "The coin pictured is only a representation of the coin you will receive, not the exact coin" among the various bullets in the description. So I poked around some more. Their stock photo for an NGC AU53 is a PCGS MS66+ from CoinFacts. I don't like stock photos in general (outside of perhaps moderns available in bulk), but I'm not sure I've ever seen one this bad. I'll just go out on a limb and say the coin the buyer receives will be a tad inferior to the one they see in the listing.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/175480790198
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1851-o-3cs/3665
Comments
Hopefully, the buyer scans the coin before the purchase. Doing that will let them know that the coin is not the coin they are getting.
This happens all the time on eBay, and even some of the big seller like Apmex use generic photos. I understand that it is a pain if one has 20 coins to sell... but, I am of the philosophy that if one wants to sell coins - (s)he should represent them as accurately as possible.
It's hard enough to buy the exact coin online with the variance in lighting affecting the appearance. The seller of this coin does not accept returns. So you don't know what you are getting and you have to accept whatever comes in the mail. Too risky for a guy like me.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
That is beyond acceptable for stock photos.
One seller who appears to use possibly misleading stock images, in my opinion, is APMEX. They have, in the past at least, used really nice coins in OGH plastic and then have the stock photo disclaimer added somewhere in the listing. Their most egregious usage of stock images, again in my opinion, was a rather recent example of a common date WQ in PCGS MS66 where they used an image of a toned WQ in an OGH with a gold CAC sticker even though it was just a stock image. Of course, they do this for eyeballs as much as sales and it certainly worked to get my eyeballs on the product.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
. Of course, they do this for eyeballs as much as sales and it certainly worked to get my eyeballs on the product.
i haven't used this one before but seems apropos here:
short term gain for long term pain...
Deceptive use of stock photos for sure!
Stock photos and rare coins, shouldn't go together period. Save it for the junk silver and bullion rounds.
Just crazy.
Disgusting
BHNC #203
Pinehurst Coin should be absolutely ashamed of using such a deceptive image.
I notice they have a PNG logo at the bottom of the listing, I wonder what they would have to say about this sort of tactic.
Collector, occasional seller
https://www.ebay.com/itm/204117522785?hash=item2f865a3961:g:-RsAAOSwb2ZjTqYI
Dug a little more, didn't take long to find this one.
MS66 79-S with a PCGS 68+ photoshopped in. Come on...
Collector, occasional seller
The only time I use a stock photo on a coin is for instance 2021 peace and Morgan's that are basically all the same in the same grade. Other than that they aren't appropriate for any coin that's not a modem mint coin like that, as I want to show the buyer as close as possible what they are buying. I accept returns but I don't want any.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Indeed disgusting!
My YouTube Channel
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Edit: Looks like they have updated the pictures, Good job!
It looks like most of their NGC Morgans are using PCGS photos of coins 2.5 points higher than the holder. They just grabbed them from the price guide pages.
85-O "NGC MS65" with PCGS MS68 image
https://www.ebay.com/itm/314009420725?hash=item491c6b83b5:g:fDcAAOSwCwBijSO9
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/38353280
85-P "NGC MS65" with the same obverse image as above, some other P mint reverse image.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/314009537520?hash=item491c6d4bf0:g:6CgAAOSw5yZijTs4
1900 "NGC MS65" with PCGS
https://www.ebay.com/itm/175294187109?hash=item28d0590665:g:5iUAAOSwMQxijSUx
Obverse Image of this 67+ https://www.pcgs.com/cert/41801201
Same reverse image as the 85-P above, not yet found on PCGS
Here's a particularly egregious one, 1890-S "MS63" with an MS67 image
https://www.ebay.com/itm/175294110535?hash=item28d057db47:g:EV8AAOSwzgNijRf0
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/34005912
1897-S MS65 with 1897-P MS67+ Obverse image, some other S mint reverse Image
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203858963600?hash=item2f76f0ec90:g:SzkAAOSwzU1iJUAi
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/44050661
Anyway, I think I'm done looking.
I realize these are "stock photos" but at least use a coin of the same grade!!! Someone not paying attention might get tricked, highly unethical in my opinion.
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Edit: Looks like they have updated the pictures, Good job!
Collector, occasional seller
Pure fraud via intentional misrepresentation.
Even on moderns, it gets annoying because I'm so specific in what I want. Just about every time I see a great coin, click on the sale and they have 20 other coins to sell. Stock photos need to be apparent and say in the photo that's what it is....a stock photo. lol
And recently came across a sale with a pic of a PCGS holder/coin but the discription says NGC. Sent a message asking which is it and got no reply.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I have been building a collection of MS66 RD Lincoln Cents that now spans 1930-1975. I avoid listings where multiple quantities of the same grade of coin are listed, and in purchasing those where the photos are of the actual coin I am looking at and ultimately purchasing, I have yet to be disappointed. I have 130 of the cents, including a 1981-D that was too beautiful to pass up. Searching so many of these, I have also found the occasional error, those things happen.
That is ridiculous.
I messaged Pinehurst requesting a picture of the actual coin and this is what I got back:
Good Afternoon,
Thank you for reaching out to Pinehurst Coins.
We would love to be able to take a photo of the item you will receive but here in Customer Service, we do not have that kind of access to inventory.
Be rest assured all of our items are inspected for quality before they reach inventory. If the coin you receive does not meet your satisfaction, we will do what we can to make it right for you.
Feel free to contact us with any further questions. Representatives are available to assist you M-F, 9 am -5 pm EST.
We look forward to working with you in the future and hope you have a great day.
Regards,
Customer Service
Pinehurst Coins
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
This is where Ebay's "Not as described or pictured" return policy comes in handy.
What the seller is doing is crappy. No doubt. But if you're buying a coin based on a stock photo and expecting to get anything other than one with the label/grade being offered for sale, you're not thinking very clearly and contributing to your own disappointment.
Right, stock photos representing multiple coins? I will never bid on those types of auctions
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Ebay rules say that stock photos can only be used on Modern coins. All others must have the photo of the exact coin in the auction. From ebay: "Must include photos of the front and back of the actual item for sale (stock photos are not allowed)"
bob
Yes, and they have the ANA and PCGS logo at the bottom of the listing.
Someone should report them to PNG, ANA & PCGS for dishonest business practices.
I wonder how PCGS feels about their copyrighted photos being used in a NGC holder.
Edited to add: I sent Pinehurst a message through the ebay system, I will post their reply if I get one.
This practice is just DEPLORABLE #
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
Are eBay sellers held to the laws of the states where they are located? If the example posted in the o.p. is accurate, isn't this illegal under North Carolina's Unfair and Deceptive Trade Practices Act? Just wondering.
If the PNG has any integrity they should sanction this “dealer”.
Disgusting
The PNG is probably also a fake
BHNC #203
The PNG is probably also a fake
I just went into the PNG website - www.pngdealers.org - and he's listed as a dealer there. Somebody should complain big time!
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
I won't visit a website of a dealer if I discover they use "stock" images and I won't make any inquiries to see an actual image of the coin for sale. Chances are if they can't load a picture of the actual coin they won't have one when I ask. APMEX is well known to do this sort of thing.
I messaged the seller through eBay and sent them a link to this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I will not purchase coins listed as 'stock photo's' or if I suspect that from the listing/history. Risky enough buying coins from photographs - as we have all learned from exercises on this forum. Cheers, RickO
Their name sounded familiar so I checked my favorite sellers list on Ebay. Though I have never purchased from them they were listed. Thanks to this thread they have been deleted. Thank you airplanenut.
Surprised by this practice from said seller. Have done transactions with them in the past. Bullion related .... which is why I'm surprised. There is another major bullion seller... who does similar stuff in the numismatic field ... but I won't link to them or say names.
I understand the need for stock photos, but they should be actually representative of the product being sold.
The amount of work to piece these together seems like it would be greater than just taking an image of one of the coins that they have and obfuscating the certification number. That they put more effort into creating these false images than it would take to create accurate ones is what bothers me about this since that indicates specific intent.
Collector, occasional seller
Seems they switched and have the "correct" photo now - must have been your email and this thread.
I know this coin, (at least the coin it supposed to be" One of our local club members had a group of coins that he wanted to sell, often he buys stuff and tries to flip and make a profit. When he presented the group of coins to me, I like the 51-o as a date, but did not care much for this coin. It was marginal at best. I think I offered like 460-470 max and only becuase he was a club member. He told me a few days later that he sold it to Pinehurst coins for like 540. I told him, I am not sure why they offered so strong on it, they must have had a customer for it, the only thing I can figure. Intresting it's come up in this thread based on what the op said, they usually are straight up and good folks to do business with.
But what about any other listings that might have Included similar misrepresentations?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I did too
Still no response to my message.
One way to teach them a lesson about doing this type of stuff is to flood them with bad Google reviews.
Guess who just joined the forum..... @PinehurstCoins
Pinehurst Coins called and asked me to post this on their behalf, as I mentioned, I have been doing business with them for years, and they are a very reputable straight up organization, Several of my customers love doing business with them as well.
<>
First, we would like to thank those of you on this forum for identifying this very serious problem with our listings. It is certainly not our intention to deceive our customers. This is a clear communication breakdown and a lack of numismatic experience within our Marketing department.
The use of stock images in our business helps control the cost of the products, so that we can provide the best possible price to our clients. Taking an image of each individual coin and creating a unique listing comes at a cost. For common items that can be represented well with a stock image; this is the best practice for a lower retail price. That being said, the technical grade of the item should NEVER be altered in this process. The stock photo of an MS63 Morgan should represent exactly that and nothing else. Unfortunately, a breakdown occurred when the Numismatic department let Marketing know that these items could be displayed using stock photos. Marketing took this to mean that any photo of the proper coin and date could be used. This process is used for Modern MS70 and PF70UC coins and is extremely effective, but does not at all translate to what needed to be accomplished with these coins. Please keep in mind our Marketing department is focused on creating the best possible images for our clients, they are not numismatists. Their actions were in no way intended to deceive the public.
We are in the process of reviewing our currently listed items and are actively updating all images that have issues. We are also updating our policies and procedures to ensure this is not an issue that can occur in the future. Again, we would like to give a sincere thank you to those who found the issue and brought it to our attention in a positive manner. We appreciate feedback and look forward to improving our ability to serve our industry. Integrity is of the utmost importance to us at Pinehurst Coins. We can admit when we are wrong and will take the appropriate actions to correct the issues and better our processes to ensure this does not happen again in the future.
Vincent Wade
President/CEO
Pinehurst Coins
-Vince
It reads like a nice statement from Pinehurst Coins and I would like to believe they are being honest and that this was truly a breakdown in their procedures and instructions. It remains to be seen if they correct all their listings and if they slide back into this paradigm in the future. It is unfortunate that in today's age I feel compelled to think this message is just for consumption, rather than for action, but I will certainly give them the benefit of the doubt at this time.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
"The use of stock images in our business helps control the cost of the products"
"Taking an image of each individual coin and creating a unique listing comes at a cost."
It takes more time & costs more money to spend extra labor to photoshop a coin rather than just take a photo of the holder that is in the listing anyway. I'm not buying it.
Love it when people can admit when they are wrong.
Thanks, @PinehurstCoins
Well, I consider that an acceptable and appropriate response. Good on @PinehurstCoins for taking responsibility, and good on @airplanenut for bringing this to light...Not all heroes wear capes
Founder- Peak Rarities
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It's funny they can correct the photo but when a customer asks for a photo of the exact coin they say "We would love to be able to take a photo of the item you will receive but here in Customer Service, we do not have that kind of access to inventory."
Thank you PCGS for speeding up the vetting process and getting our account approved quickly.
@jdimmick thank you for posting our response in a timely manner.
This is not a proud moment for @PinehurstCoins and we are working to get it rectified.
Good luck (I mean it) with making your listings correct.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
They're still going to continue to use stock photos, he just said they would use an accurate grade image. I'm sure that the customer service rep is overseas somewhere, they most likely don't have access to inventory and thus have a typical, canned response to those type of inquiries. Once they saw they uproar ensuing on here, it went through the appropriate chain of command for them to take any action.
Founder- Peak Rarities
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Perhaps they can reduce their expenses by eliminating the marketing department
The response would be more effective if they communicated that they have set a deadline (communicated here) to resolve so that accountability is assured, both internally and externally.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Let's hope this is an one-off moment for Pinehurst.
I had nothing but positive experience with Pinehurst when dealing with them (both on buying and selling side).
hey welcome, but you gotta change your logo/emoji - that angry scowling one is depicting you poorly
To take a picture of the front and back of a slab and create an image file takes what, 5 minutes tops? Not buying it.