Home U.S. Coin Forum
Options

Large cent just came back with an "altered surface" designation... I disagree, opinions?

WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 15, 2022 7:59AM in U.S. Coin Forum

I can't see it, what am I missing here?
Pics of the raw coin, and then compared with the TV, in my opinion this is completely original...

Cert#45919745. -Genuine - UNC Details (94 - Altered Surf.)

for the record, I know that there is a stain on the reverse that most of you won't like, Right now I'm primarily asking about the designation it got.
I'm all ears...

(edited to add the grade)

."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

«1

Comments

  • Options
    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I do not see any specific points that I would recognize as altered surface. The hair detail is quite crisp and detailed - if it was tooled, it is extremely well done and recolored. I do not say that is the issue, just an observation without evidence. Perhaps you should call for clarification. Cheers, RickO

  • Options
    MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said: The hair detail is quite crisp and detailed - if it was tooled, it is extremely well done and recolored.

    If it was tooled the "no grade" would be 98 – Damage/Tooled or something similar.

    The OP had a different "no grade" result: 94 – Altered Surfaces
    --- An altered surface call will be made if PCGS discovers anything has been added to the surface of the coin to either "improve" its appearance or to cover marks, scratches or other surface damage. Surface alteration methods include adding the following materials: dental wax, putty, lacquer, nose grease, etc. "Thumbing" is the application of a putty-like material to fill in marks, scratches, and other defects or to haze over portions of the coin. Coatings (such as lacquer), while intended to protect coins, result in a No Grade, as it becomes impossible to determine the quality of the underlying surfaces
    .

    Just looking at the images of the coin I can see a couple areas on both sides which don't look right. In short, the color doesn't seem to "fit" with the surface condition. If you open the bottom image in a another window where it's much larger you might see what I mean.

  • Options
    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Maywood... Thanks for the clarification, I thought tooling was part of altered surface definition. Cheers, RickO

  • Options
    MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Me too until I looked up to check.

  • Options
    oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps they thought the luster was inconsistent with the lack of wear, but then I would think they would have called it cleaned, or if the color doesn't seem right that would have been the designation. I'm at a loss.

  • Options
    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,432 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hard to tell without examining it in hand with good lighting and magnification. Maybe they thought it was dipped and retoned but that's only a guess.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Options
    Jzyskowski1Jzyskowski1 Posts: 6,651 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My dime has “questionable color” as its designation. Seems they have a section for that. I’m learning so appreciate the post. I think it looks pretty original but I’m not the expert 😁
    Interesting to watch and learn. Thanks

    🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶

  • Options
    jedmjedm Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Maywood said:

    Just looking at the images of the coin I can see a couple areas on both sides which don't look right. In short, the color doesn't seem to "fit" with the surface condition. If you open the bottom image in a another window where it's much larger you might see what I mean.

    Under her nose and chin? I don't see anything on the reverse that compares to that.

  • Options
    Jzyskowski1Jzyskowski1 Posts: 6,651 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    I bet if that was sent in raw and requested for the removal of the black speck on the reverse (at 11:00), it would be curated and graded into a regular holder.
    I have heard of other "problem" coins being treated by PCGS and graded regularly.

    Like the idea but wonder if they would notice the coin as it’s kinda an unusual bird and catch the resubmitting. Maybe, as mentioned, having a little conservation happening they change their mind 🧐

    🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶

  • Options
    Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a spot was removed under the cent on the reverse, Nice coin though.



    Hoard the keys.
  • Options
    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Between that large cent being graded and upon its return for curation and subsequent entering the grading room, the graders will have seen and graded hundreds if not thousands of coins.
    It will not be remembered or even thought of.

    peacockcoins

  • Options
    WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Type2 said:
    Looks like a spot was removed under the cent on the reverse, Nice coin though.

    Actually that spot under the T in CENT only shows up in the Trueview, I do not remember it being there when I sent it in and you don't see it in the raw photo... :confused:
    Is there any possibility that it came in contact with something in the grading process that caused some sort of reaction with the surfaces? I know that's far fetched and they probably have strict protocols they're supposed to follow, but it almost seems like a couple spots appeared on the surface sometime in the 3 months it was at PCGS...

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • Options
    silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,599 ✭✭✭✭✭

    you paid for a expert opinion you got one, yeah not what you wanted but when paying for a opinion expect the unexpected cause graders see things we don't or overlook

  • Options
    WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dont know if this will help but here's a few more pics I took when it was in hand, I just dont see anything that would indicate this was altered in any way, the only thing that doesn't look original is the faint fingerprint but thats not even the problem here...


    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • Options
    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,328 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Obverse field looks a bit funky but I'm not sure if it's die wear or not.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • Options
    JBKJBK Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :o

    It sure was "in hand". :#

    Where in the world could that fingerprint have come from? 🤔

    The spot under the T in "cent" certainly does not appear to be there pre-submission, but based on the way you were handling the coin I'm not sure why you would suspect that PCGS might have caused it. :/

    I am no expert on grading or copper, but that area under the chin and in front of the neck keeps catching my eye.

  • Options
    tincuptincup Posts: 4,778 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    :o

    It sure was "in hand". :#

    Where in the world could that fingerprint have come from? 🤔

    The spot under the T in "cent" certainly does not appear to be there pre-submission, but based on the way you were handling the coin I'm not sure why you would suspect that PCGS might have caused it. :/

    I am no expert on grading or copper, but that area under the chin and in front of the neck keeps catching my eye.

    Yeah... that may be the issue.

    ----- kj
  • Options
    CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,397 ✭✭✭✭✭

    looks like corrosion was removed around the TAT of states and then MS70'ed.

  • Options
    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,767 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2022 12:53PM

    The field in front of the portrait and around/over the date look unnatural. Not sure what happened there but I'd bet that is the area the graders are concerned with. Perhaps smoothed or thumbed, just look off.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • Options
    WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    :o

    It sure was "in hand". :#

    Where in the world could that fingerprint have come from? 🤔

    The spot under the T in "cent" certainly does not appear to be there pre-submission, but based on the way you were handling the coin I'm not sure why you would suspect that PCGS might have caused it. :/

    I am no expert on grading or copper, but that area under the chin and in front of the neck keeps catching my eye.

    The fingerprint was already there, the seller is a member here as well and if you like I can ask him to confirm that for you... , I'm not sure if you noticed or not but I'm holding it by the rims.... I took those pictures a few minutes before putting it in a (non-pvc) flip and putting it in the mail to PCGS

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • Options
    The_Dinosaur_ManThe_Dinosaur_Man Posts: 839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There may be a combination of factors contributing to the opinion of altered surfaces. The pitting on the lower left obverse field appears similar to some coins that have been "whizzed" while the scratches beneath "CENT" on the reverse are suggestive of having been made deliberately. I like the coin as original too, though I suspect that the graders weren't without doubt and played it safe.

    Custom album maker and numismatic photographer, see my portfolio here: (http://www.donahuenumismatics.com/).

  • Options
    WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Catbert said:
    My eye was drawn to the orangy coloration of the dentils surrounding the reverse spot:

    Perhaps evidence of some attempt to address the spot.

    Do you think they'd give it an "altered surfaces" designation based solely on that spot?
    Pretty sure I've seen details graded coins where it mentions specific spots but it doesn't say the whole surface is messed up... I obviously don't know enough about what to look for because I wouldn't have sent this in if I didn't think it had a good chance of straight grading :confused:

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • Options
    CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,603 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was referring to the orange area, not the spot exclusively. The orange area may not be consistent with the rest of the toning on the piece. Just a supposition since I don't have the coin in hand.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • Options
    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,693 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I almost wonder if there's a spot removed or a bagmark smoothed away...

  • Options
    rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,619 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yep, Catbert beat me to it. Someone tried to remove the spot. If you look closely at the dentils, they are brown all the way around the coin, except near the black spot. Someone probably put a drop of acid or "dip" on a Q-tip and tried to hit that spot without touching the rest of the coin.

  • Options
    WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rhedden said:
    Yep, Catbert beat me to it. Someone tried to remove the spot. If you look closely at the dentils, they are brown all the way around the coin, except near the black spot. Someone probably put a drop of acid or "dip" on a Q-tip and tried to hit that spot without touching the rest of the coin.

    I've seen plenty of coins where it notes "corrosion removed" but that doesn't give it an "alt. surfaces" designation, you see that on laquered/thumbed/greased coins...
    Whats different here?

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • Options
    WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll gladly admit that I don't know enough about grading, I am learning valuable stuff from this thread already, I'm just trying to understand the designation because it doesn't seem correct, I wouldn't be surprised if they had given it a details grade for the carbon spot but they didn't...

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • Options
    rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,619 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They failed to remove the corrosion? :) The altered surfaces would be for the stripped area around the spot that is missing the patina.

    You could try putting it in a paper envelope for 10 years and seeing if the natural color comes back; copper coins have a way of retoning themselves after some time.

  • Options

    I am looking and comparing the shape and size of the lips and the size of the nostril--the length

  • Options
    WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @woodmiser said:
    I am looking and comparing the shape and size of the lips and the size of the nostril--the length

    ??

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • Options
    JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Someone tried to remove that spot above STATES and discolored the denticles on both side. Unnatural red on both sides of spot.

  • Options
    1madman1madman Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The scratch under the E in cent on the reverse, and the coloration around the stars obverse from around 10-12 o’clock look messed with. Sell it, move on, don’t make this coin into a money pit.

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,931 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jzyskowski1 said:

    @braddick said:
    I bet if that was sent in raw and requested for the removal of the black speck on the reverse (at 11:00), it would be curated and graded into a regular holder.
    I have heard of other "problem" coins being treated by PCGS and graded regularly.

    Like the idea but wonder if they would notice the coin as it’s kinda an unusual bird and catch the resubmitting. Maybe, as mentioned, having a little conservation happening they change their mind 🧐

    Given the thousands of coins they look at weekly, no one is going to remember that coin. Imo

  • Options
    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Given the thousands of coins they look at weekly, no one is going to remember that coin. Imo

    Besides, what are the odds the coin would end up going to the same graders as before?

  • Options
    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @silverpop said:
    you paid for a expert opinion you got one, yeah not what you wanted but when paying for a opinion expect the unexpected cause graders see things we don't or overlook

    Graders also make mistakes and are understandably, far from perfectly consistent. But even if they were perfect, the OP sounds as if he would at least like to understand the source of the details-grade expert opinion that he paid for.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Options
    kazkaz Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see a group of small indentations in front of the throat that don't look right to me.

  • Options
    WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @kaz said:
    I see a group of small indentations in front of the throat that don't look right to me.

    What do you mean "don't look right"? Do you think its damage, or possible tooling?
    I see what you are referring to but in my opinion those are die markers, this is a pretty late die state and there are striations and other markers all over the coin, thank you for the comment, would you mind expounding a bit? 🙃

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • Options
    MJPHELANMJPHELAN Posts: 760 ✭✭✭

    Can PCGS detect chemicals on the surface? I seem to remember reading about coin "sniffing" technology that they have developed.

    Mark
  • Options
    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2022 10:06AM

    perhaps we should start sending a link to this thread to everyone en-masse?

    ok. i give up looking for the link. here are the pics i snagged for posterity.

    @lkeigwin










    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Options
    WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I appreciate everyones insight and opinions on this, I still don't quite get the designation that they gave it but I think I see where they're coming from.
    I will probably not do anything with it for now, I like it an awful lot and the coin itself is still (mostly, except for the spot that appeared under CENT) the same regardless of the designation.
    Thanks guys, I still got a long ways to go!

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • Options
    kazkaz Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2022 8:53PM

    @WilliamF said:

    @kaz said:
    I see a group of small indentations in front of the throat that don't look right to me.

    What do you mean "don't look right"? Do you think its damage, or possible tooling?
    I see what you are referring to but in my opinion those are die markers, this is a pretty late die state and there are striations and other markers all over the coin, thank you for the comment, would you mind expounding a bit? 🙃

    Hi, to me they looked like impressions into the metal, made by a tool of some kind. That's what didn't look right to me. But, I am not familiar with series or the various die states, and wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong.

  • Options
    DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's been recolored at a minimum imho.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • Options
    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WilliamF said:
    I appreciate everyones insight and opinions on this, I still don't quite get the designation that they gave it but I think I see where they're coming from.
    I will probably not do anything with it for now, I like it an awful lot and the coin itself is still (mostly, except for the spot that appeared under CENT) the same regardless of the designation.
    Thanks guys, I still got a long ways to go!

    .
    fwiw, my first thought was this area looks a lil sus. the red showing through and the immediately area surrounding doesn't look natural from the pic.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Options
    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see a problem. I'd resubmit it. Or send it to another TPG.
    Lance.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file