1733 8 Reales Mexico real or fake (2 different coins same question)?

PillarDollarCollector

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175461646124?hash=item28da543f2c:g:WAMAAOSwRXNjVL8H&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoL03z4qQ/8NS4+B2Isk24qVhJripeBmSPq8X/I02efY1ujObPNpyYUitQIf8nCE4QDpf3niuMVlV/QxkRUtjKwNwEbpu+0h1z6X+wSr1drFNpFZ45JnNpRJEYux409z8gLDmPWFJR45p2iWQY3Hd0gM5EU298vR5fYJo5t7IPTVfFaoqo0dt1Y63lSRuzhHEUkyuX0r7iaucxdU+aoEtumE=|tkp:Bk9SR5bbqv2DYQ

PillarDollarCollector

Not looking to buy either just curious.

PillarDollarCollector

How about this other 1733?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255796603046?hash=item3b8eaa68a6:g:mMIAAOSwq~ljWZ7h&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA4P69BZlTsajHOXMfOwmZ6x6UQG7CyeGZobemS1iVnR5dnbUqHPDRjRnzzpZSYqqGOoo44z765ibVqlyAr+tCKnonojPY7jKhz5rxvMl9TYDOekgDH+6cbK7WV4fb2DSd97k4b/9W0fbZirfSZtUJyqIL7qlP8870K61KIHoIkMjJc/bbUckUIOklSG9yQ7x8diMGZXhLxteyb6OLWrRMlHpno63H0WIgQAK/WQScE3Fg3eJdPWKuMpC+ExFBt5ni93/Pk7YQEn/EpsZkUPC7VxYxgtxXQAC5D0oPSNqLH3o6|tkp:BFBMltuq_YNh

BillJones

It's hard to say from the photos without seeing them in person. Unless the 1733 is a super rarity, I'd say the second one from sea salvage is massively over priced.

I can tell you that this one is no good. I caught it at a local club auction a few years ago. The owner gave it to me after he confirmed it with a TPG.

PillarDollarCollector

No I have zero interest in buying either one just wanted to see peoples thoughts about both of them. I always buy graded coins NGC or PCGS never raw I am not an expert on such matters hence why I prefer graded coins.

PillarDollarCollector

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
How about this other 1733?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255796603046?hash=item3b8eaa68a6:g:mMIAAOSwq~ljWZ7h&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA4P69BZlTsajHOXMfOwmZ6x6UQG7CyeGZobemS1iVnR5dnbUqHPDRjRnzzpZSYqqGOoo44z765ibVqlyAr+tCKnonojPY7jKhz5rxvMl9TYDOekgDH+6cbK7WV4fb2DSd97k4b/9W0fbZirfSZtUJyqIL7qlP8870K61KIHoIkMjJc/bbUckUIOklSG9yQ7x8diMGZXhLxteyb6OLWrRMlHpno63H0WIgQAK/WQScE3Fg3eJdPWKuMpC+ExFBt5ni93/Pk7YQEn/EpsZkUPC7VxYxgtxXQAC5D0oPSNqLH3o6|tkp:BFBMltuq_YNh

I have no idea what this specific MX variety is worth in 2022 I know a much better one graded by PCGS sold back in 2017 at HA XF45 sold for 5640$ but again that was 5 years ago prices have went up on a lot of key Mexican coins since then.

ELuis

I do not own any 8R pillars, but saw this gone:

For 2.3k, few days ago.

WCC

I know you've mentioned the 1733 several times. Outside of varieties, the only "key" to me is the 1732. Some of the other dates are hard to find nice but the 1733 is actually more common than many others. I assume it's expensive because it's the earliest date with enough affordable supply. Similar idea for the 1733 4R.

I find it overpriced.

PillarDollarCollector

@WCC said:
I know you've mentioned the 1733 several times. Outside of varieties, the only "key" to me is the 1732. Some of the other dates are hard to find nice but the 1733 is actually more common than many others. I assume it's expensive because it's the earliest date with enough affordable supply. Similar idea for the 1733 4R.

I find it overpriced.

All 1732's are mega keys. But I also believe all 1733's are key coins to own as well. That goes for 1/2 real up to 8 reales. For me these 2 dates are the most important of each series (1733's are not the rarest but historically important). Many 1733's are not easy to locate and many of the 9 variations of the 8 reales are next to impossible to find. Even the most ''common'' is not that common maybe 100-200 exist in the entire world. That is still special.

WCC

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@WCC said:
I know you've mentioned the 1733 several times. Outside of varieties, the only "key" to me is the 1732. Some of the other dates are hard to find nice but the 1733 is actually more common than many others. I assume it's expensive because it's the earliest date with enough affordable supply. Similar idea for the 1733 4R.

I find it overpriced.

The 1732 is the mega key for sure but the 1733 is also special in my opinion (all variations). To me all 1732's and 1733's are major key coins to own 1/2 real up to 8 reales.

Yes, but the 1733 8R isn't actually scarce. It's only expensive. It's certainly not common "nice" or in "market acceptable" quality but then I don't think any other dates are either outside of the 1754.

The 1733 4R is also more available than many (and maybe most) of the other Mexico 4R dates. It is legitimately scarce and rare in "market acceptable" (higher) quality since none from this denomination are even close to common.

The 1733 1/2R and 2R are legitimately very scarce, rare depending upon definition. The 1733 1R seems to be rarer than most other 1R dates but it's available, just not often. I owned it at one time as a NGC VG-8.

PillarDollarCollector

@WCC said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@WCC said:
I know you've mentioned the 1733 several times. Outside of varieties, the only "key" to me is the 1732. Some of the other dates are hard to find nice but the 1733 is actually more common than many others. I assume it's expensive because it's the earliest date with enough affordable supply. Similar idea for the 1733 4R.

I find it overpriced.

The 1732 is the mega key for sure but the 1733 is also special in my opinion (all variations). To me all 1732's and 1733's are major key coins to own 1/2 real up to 8 reales.

Yes, but the 1733 8R isn't actually scarce. It's only expensive. It's certainly not common "nice" or in "market acceptable" quality but then I don't think any other dates are either outside of the 1754.

The 1733 4R is also more available than many (and maybe most) of the other Mexico 4R dates. It is legitimately scarce and rare in "market acceptable" (higher) quality since none from this denomination are even close to common.

The 1733 1/2R and 2R are legitimately very scarce, rare depending upon definition. The 1733 1R seems to be rarer than most other 1R dates but it's available, just not often. I owned it at one time as a NGC VG-8.

The market has decided otherwise the 8 reales 1733 is a coin that is in demand no matter the variation. It just like many other coins around the globe that are ''common'' but in high demand say the 1948 dollar in Canada (there are tons of examples of such coins). Compare the 1733 8 reales to that 1948 dollar and the 1733 is much much rarer. Same as 1909 penny S VDB or 1955 double struck and many more.

WCC

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@WCC said:
I know you've mentioned the 1733 several times. Outside of varieties, the only "key" to me is the 1732. Some of the other dates are hard to find nice but the 1733 is actually more common than many others. I assume it's expensive because it's the earliest date with enough affordable supply. Similar idea for the 1733 4R.

I find it overpriced.

Many 1733's are not easy to locate and many of the 9 variations of the 8 reales are next to impossible to find. Even the most ''common'' is not that common maybe 100-200 exist in the entire world. That is still special.

I was responding to your post prior to your edits. I'm not trying to talk you out of buying one, only explaining why I think the coin (as a date) costs too much for its potential availability.

Now you are talking about something else entirely. Die variety rarity isn't equivalent to date rarity. The 1733 8R (all varieties) has more demand than all other dates except the 1732 accounting for the higher price, but 100-200 as a variety is not relatively scarce. It's probably the norm for coins of this period and even noticeably later.

I also don't believe the numbers are as low as you think. Mexico mintage records don't have a breakout by denomination but since most of the 1733 silver coinage is certainly 8R and not others, it's likely at least 1MM. Gilboy reports it as roughly 10MM pesos which I recall is 8R equivalents, but I cannot find it now. Yonaka has all Peru dates as more than 1MM between 1756-1771 and these are usually scarcer.

Since most of the coins circulated outside of Mexico, I'd estimate the actual number is some multiple of what you think for all nine varieties combined. I'd guess at least 10,000 exist which is still only a fraction of 1% of the mintage.

I have the same opinion for all other Mexico dates (outside the 1732) and many (maybe most) from Peru. Same for the Bolivia 1769 and 1770.

These coins aren't scarce generically, only without issues making it "market acceptable" or in high quality.

WCC

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@WCC said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@WCC said:
I know you've mentioned the 1733 several times. Outside of varieties, the only "key" to me is the 1732. Some of the other dates are hard to find nice but the 1733 is actually more common than many others. I assume it's expensive because it's the earliest date with enough affordable supply. Similar idea for the 1733 4R.

I find it overpriced.

The 1732 is the mega key for sure but the 1733 is also special in my opinion (all variations). To me all 1732's and 1733's are major key coins to own 1/2 real up to 8 reales.

Yes, but the 1733 8R isn't actually scarce. It's only expensive. It's certainly not common "nice" or in "market acceptable" quality but then I don't think any other dates are either outside of the 1754.

The 1733 4R is also more available than many (and maybe most) of the other Mexico 4R dates. It is legitimately scarce and rare in "market acceptable" (higher) quality since none from this denomination are even close to common.

The 1733 1/2R and 2R are legitimately very scarce, rare depending upon definition. The 1733 1R seems to be rarer than most other 1R dates but it's available, just not often. I owned it at one time as a NGC VG-8.

The market has decided otherwise the 8 reales 1733 is a coin that is in demand no matter the variation. It just like many other coins around the globe that are ''common'' but in high demand say the 1948 dollar in Canada (there are tons of examples of such coins). Compare the 1733 8 reales to that 1948 dollar and the 1733 is much much rarer. Same as 1909 penny S VDB or 1955 double struck and many more.

You're now mixing demand and supply. Read my posts where I acknowledged the distinction.

PillarDollarCollector

@WCC said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@WCC said:
I know you've mentioned the 1733 several times. Outside of varieties, the only "key" to me is the 1732. Some of the other dates are hard to find nice but the 1733 is actually more common than many others. I assume it's expensive because it's the earliest date with enough affordable supply. Similar idea for the 1733 4R.

I find it overpriced.

Many 1733's are not easy to locate and many of the 9 variations of the 8 reales are next to impossible to find. Even the most ''common'' is not that common maybe 100-200 exist in the entire world. That is still special.

I was responding to your post prior to your edits. I'm not trying to talk you out of buying one, only explaining why I think the coin (as a date) costs too much for its potential availability.

Now you are talking about something else entirely. Die variety rarity isn't equivalent to date rarity. The 1733 8R (all varieties) has more demand than all other dates except the 1732 accounting for the higher price, but 100-200 as a variety is not relatively scarce. It's probably the norm for coins of this period and even noticeably later.

I also don't believe the numbers are as low as you think. Mexico mintage records don't have a breakout by denomination but since most of the 1733 silver coinage is certainly 8R and not others, it's likely at least 1MM. Gilboy reports it as roughly 10MM pesos which I recall is 8R equivalents, but I cannot find it now. Yonaka has all Peru dates as more than 1MM between 1756-1771 and these are usually scarcer.

Since most of the coins circulated outside of Mexico, I'd estimate the actual number is some multiple of what you think for all nine varieties combined. I'd guess at least 10,000 exist which is still only a fraction of 1% of the mintage.

I have the same opinion for all other Mexico dates (outside the 1732) and many (maybe most) from Peru. Same for the Bolivia 1769 and 1770.

These coins aren't scarce generically, only without issues making it "market acceptable" or in high quality.

For me as a Mexico 8 reales collector the most special are the 1732 and all the 1733's I think most collectors feel the same (1732-1754 period). But we could debate this all day long you have your opinion and I have mine.

PillarDollarCollector

@WCC said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@WCC said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@WCC said:
I know you've mentioned the 1733 several times. Outside of varieties, the only "key" to me is the 1732. Some of the other dates are hard to find nice but the 1733 is actually more common than many others. I assume it's expensive because it's the earliest date with enough affordable supply. Similar idea for the 1733 4R.

I find it overpriced.

The 1732 is the mega key for sure but the 1733 is also special in my opinion (all variations). To me all 1732's and 1733's are major key coins to own 1/2 real up to 8 reales.

Yes, but the 1733 8R isn't actually scarce. It's only expensive. It's certainly not common "nice" or in "market acceptable" quality but then I don't think any other dates are either outside of the 1754.

The 1733 4R is also more available than many (and maybe most) of the other Mexico 4R dates. It is legitimately scarce and rare in "market acceptable" (higher) quality since none from this denomination are even close to common.

The 1733 1/2R and 2R are legitimately very scarce, rare depending upon definition. The 1733 1R seems to be rarer than most other 1R dates but it's available, just not often. I owned it at one time as a NGC VG-8.

The market has decided otherwise the 8 reales 1733 is a coin that is in demand no matter the variation. It just like many other coins around the globe that are ''common'' but in high demand say the 1948 dollar in Canada (there are tons of examples of such coins). Compare the 1733 8 reales to that 1948 dollar and the 1733 is much much rarer. Same as 1909 penny S VDB or 1955 double struck and many more.

You're now mixing demand and supply. Read my posts where I acknowledged the distinction.

I understand your points but the market has decided the 2 most in demand dates are 1732 and 1733 for this series. I don't see that changing.

PillarDollarCollector

Just look at say the 1952 topps Mickey Mantle or Amazing Fantasy 15 (1st Spiderman) they are extremely common (10 000 or more exists of each would be my guess) there are examples for sale every day of the year but they are in demand and they sell.

Like I said we could debate and debate but in the end the market is what it is for a reason. Otherwise it would not be.

If one compares all to the 1732's of each series other coins of the same series then not much is special. The 1732's are on another level we all know that.

PillarDollarCollector

In the end this topic was to see what people here thought of the 2 examples if they look real or fake?

SimonW

I’m not sure, the first one has an odd rim on the obverse, I would personally be wary, but I don’t know a lot about the 1730’s 8 reales.

I agree with WCC though, they’re not hard to find, just expensive. I like rarity more than popularity. This seems to be a high demand coin with low rarity.

PillarDollarCollector

@SimonW said:
I’m not sure, the first one has an odd rim on the obverse, I would personally be wary, but I don’t know a lot about the 1730’s 8 reales.

I agree with WCC though, they’re not hard to find, just expensive. I like rarity more than popularity. This seems to be a high demand coin with low rarity.

As mentioned there are 9 variations of the 1733 8 reales some are ''common'', rare, very rare and some are extremely rare.

realeswatcher

Piece #2 looks like genuine salvage. The asking price is silly.

===============

Piece #1 - Aside from the surfaces, just look at the denticles, esp. shield side. Not even Mr. Luxurious' bad fake tone job (present on almost all of his offerings) can hide that.

Digging further, this piece is connected to the one in the listing KingOfMorganDollar posted about back in this thread:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1078446/is-this-real-or-fake-1733-8-reales-mexico

No pics were posted and that listing has expired off eBay, but I saved pics of a piece (first "coin" shown below) right around that date and noted it as a Chinese offering. Almost certain this was the piece in that listing.

I wanted to say that this current piece is the same coin... but the indents of the edge pattern seem more pronounced on this new piece (is it just the image angle?). Whatever, the same problem with the interrupted denticles is visible in the same exact spots... so whether this is one and the same piece or two different from identical dies, same result - FAKE!

realeswatcher

@WCC said:
the 1733 is actually more common than many others.

@SimonW said:
I agree with WCC though, they’re not hard to find, just expensive.

I think this view may be skewed from viewing too many higher-end auctions/showcases, where 1733 specimens are going to show up disproportionately more in lesser grades (vs. other dates) due to their market price. Even if you include salvage pieces, there can't possibly be a scarcer non-1732 date - in terms of absolute population, ALL grades, ANY/ALL varieties within each date - in the Mexico pillar 8R series.

This is even more true if you were to cull out the REALLY awful salvage pieces, as many (not all, but many) 1733 Fleet pieces - which compromise a decent chunk of the overall existing 1733 pillar 8R population - are rather shmeggy.

Of course, 1733 SHOULD absolutely be a rare date for pillars - clearly a large majority of Mexico's output that year came in the form of cobs (in all denominations) and klippes (4R and 8R). For 1734, most of the coinage was pillar - cobs were done and only a modest amount of klippe 4R and 8R were minted. In 1735, everything was pillar.

Now, if you want to parse things out by what exists in certain grades and also by varieties of varying importance (whatever intersection of MX vs. Mo mintmark, different monarchs, diff. assayers, overdates, legend position, crown type) it gets complicated/debatable. Of course, the MX vs. Mo mintmark variant helps the case for 1733, as it's certainly important and is of course unique to that year.

I'm keeping it simple and referring to "Mexico pillar 8R dated ____".

PillarDollarCollector

@realeswatcher said:

@WCC said:
the 1733 is actually more common than many others.

@SimonW said:
I agree with WCC though, they’re not hard to find, just expensive.

I think this view may be skewed from viewing too many higher-end auctions/showcases, where 1733 specimens are going to show up disproportionately more in lesser grades (vs. other dates) due to their market price. Even if you include salvage pieces, there can't possibly be a scarcer non-1732 date - in terms of absolute population, ALL grades, ANY/ALL varieties within each date - in the Mexico pillar 8R series.

This is even more true if you were to cull out the REALLY awful salvage pieces, as many (not all, but many) 1733 Fleet pieces - which compromise a decent chunk of the overall existing 1733 pillar 8R population - are rather shmeggy.

Of course, 1733 SHOULD absolutely be a rare date for pillars - clearly a large majority of Mexico's output that year came in the form of cobs (in all denominations) and klippes (4R and 8R). For 1734, most of the coinage was pillar - cobs were done and only a modest amount of klippe 4R and 8R were minted. In 1735, everything was pillar.

Now, if you want to parse things out by what exists in certain grades and also by varieties of varying importance (whatever intersection of MX vs. Mo mintmark, different monarchs, diff. assayers, overdates, legend position, crown type) it gets complicated/debatable. Of course, the MX vs. Mo mintmark variant helps the case for 1733, as it's certainly important and is of course unique to that year.

I'm keeping it simple and referring to "Mexico pillar 8R dated ____".

I agree 1733 is a special date of any series of Mexican reales. All 1733's are coins one can be proud to own. 2nd Most important in my opinion only to the 1732's (1732-1771 series).

PillarDollarCollector

@realeswatcher said:
Piece #2 looks like genuine salvage. The asking price is silly.

===============

Piece #1 - Aside from the surfaces, just look at the denticles, esp. shield side. Not even Mr. Luxurious' bad fake tone job (present on almost all of his offerings) can hide that.

Digging further, this piece is connected to the one in the listing KingOfMorganDollar posted about back in this thread:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1078446/is-this-real-or-fake-1733-8-reales-mexico

No pics were posted and that listing has expired off eBay, but I saved pics of a piece (first "coin" shown below) right around that date and noted it as a Chinese offering. Almost certain this was the piece in that listing.

I wanted to say that this current piece is the same coin... but the indents of the edge pattern seem more pronounced on this new piece (is it just the image angle?). Whatever, the same problem with the interrupted denticles is visible in the same exact spots... so whether this is one and the same piece or two different from identical dies, same result - FAKE!

Thanks for your input much appreciated!!!

SimonW

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@SimonW said:
I’m not sure, the first one has an odd rim on the obverse, I would personally be wary, but I don’t know a lot about the 1730’s 8 reales.

I agree with WCC though, they’re not hard to find, just expensive. I like rarity more than popularity. This seems to be a high demand coin with low rarity.

As mentioned there are 9 variations of the 1733 8 reales some are ''common'', rare, very rare and some are extremely rare.

To be fair, I tend to compare these to the coins I collect, most of which are Guatemala and Peru pillar minors. When the 1733 date is in the hundreds of examples known, it doesn’t seem very rare. Yes, broken down by type it gets more rare, and certainly among the Mexico eight reales it’s uncommon and desirable, but there’s probably more 1733 dated 8 reales Mexico coins (pillar) than there are 4 reales from Lima TOTAL, adding all dates together! Also probably true with Guatemala 1/2, 1 and 2 reales.

Suffice it to say, we’re using different yardsticks. I’m thinking numbers of coins in existence, regardless of variety and condition, I think you’re referring to comparative rarity within the series itself.

Compare any of them to US coins and they’d be Many multiples more valuable due to their rarity/vs demand.

PillarDollarCollector

@SimonW said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@SimonW said:
I’m not sure, the first one has an odd rim on the obverse, I would personally be wary, but I don’t know a lot about the 1730’s 8 reales.

I agree with WCC though, they’re not hard to find, just expensive. I like rarity more than popularity. This seems to be a high demand coin with low rarity.

As mentioned there are 9 variations of the 1733 8 reales some are ''common'', rare, very rare and some are extremely rare.

To be fair, I tend to compare these to the coins I collect, most of which are Guatemala and Peru pillar minors. When the 1733 date is in the hundreds of examples known, it doesn’t seem very rare. Yes, broken down by type it gets more rare, and certainly among the Mexico eight reales it’s uncommon and desirable, but there’s probably more 1733 dated 8 reales Mexico coins (pillar) than there are 4 reales from Lima TOTAL, adding all dates together! Also probably true with Guatemala 1/2, 1 and 2 reales.

Suffice it to say, we’re using different yardsticks. I’m thinking numbers of coins in existence, regardless of variety and condition, I think you’re referring to comparative rarity within the series itself.

Compare any of them to US coins and they’d be Many multiples more valuable due to their rarity/vs demand.

Agreed all the other countries like Bolivia, Chile and Colombia are also much rarer. The 1733 8 reales is a must if one collects that series. Good luck on owning all 9 varieties that is most likely impossible. But to own say 2-3 varieties is my goal over the long haul. For me it is a special coin (any variety) and the 2nd most important date to the series I collect 1732-1771.

Crazy8s

Since I do not charge for my humble opinion, you may value it as you please. The rarest/scarcest dates in the early 8 reales Mo mint series not from sea salvage in order are as follows. 1733 MxMF, 1732, 1733 MxF, 1733MoMF. They are the four "key" date coins in the series and always in high demand due to first year and only Mx mintmark. Realize the 1733 Plate fleet, which sunk off the Florida Keys was carrying a major portion of the 1732 and 1733 output from the mint.
On a side note, I believe the hardest DMA (date mintmark assayer) to find is actually the 1754 MoMM crowns alike, good luck on the hunt for one of those even adding in the handful found in the enormous 1754 hoard that surfaced years ago.

PillarDollarCollector

@Crazy8s said:
Since I do not charge for my humble opinion, you may value it as you please. The rarest/scarcest dates in the early 8 reales Mo mint series not from sea salvage in order are as follows. 1733 MxMF, 1732, 1733 MxF, 1733MoMF. They are the four "key" date coins in the series and always in high demand due to first year and only Mx mintmark. Realize the 1733 Plate fleet, which sunk off the Florida Keys was carrying a major portion of the 1732 and 1733 output from the mint.
On a side note, I believe the hardest DMA (date mintmark assayer) to find is actually the 1754 MoMM crowns alike, good luck on the hunt for one of those even adding in the handful found in the enormous 1754 hoard that surfaced years ago.

Thanks appreciate your input. I always appreciate when someone adds to my discussions. Just curious NGC seems to have just as many same crowns 1754's graded as the different crown variety what do you make of that? I have been asking myself that question for a while now. I would have thought there would be much less of the same crowns variation graded.

Crazy8s

Are you reading the population report correctly? NGC shows 2 certified 1754 Mo MM Crowns alike and 1 1754 Mo MM/MF crowns alike. There are over 200 crowns different

PillarDollarCollector

@Crazy8s said:
Are you reading the population report correctly? NGC shows 2 certified 1754 Mo MM Crowns alike and 1 1754 Mo MM/MF crowns alike. There are over 200 crowns different

The same crowns seems less rare than the one with different crowns 344 versus 262. Am I looking at this wrong? I thought the same crowns MO MF rarer? So the MO MF same crowns is common correct?

Crazy8s

1754 Mo MM crowns alike is the rare one. You are looking at Mo MF crowns alike, much more common variety.

WCC

@Crazy8s said:
Since I do not charge for my humble opinion, you may value it as you please. The rarest/scarcest dates in the early 8 reales Mo mint series not from sea salvage in order are as follows. 1733 MxMF, 1732, 1733 MxF, 1733MoMF. They are the four "key" date coins in the series and always in high demand due to first year and only Mx mintmark.

You're mixing varieties with dates. The 1733MxF is not a date. It's a variety.

WCC

@SimonW said:
I’m not sure, the first one has an odd rim on the obverse, I would personally be wary, but I don’t know a lot about the 1730’s 8 reales.

I agree with WCC though, they’re not hard to find, just expensive. I like rarity more than popularity. This seems to be a high demand coin with low rarity.

As mentioned there are 9 variations of the 1733 8 reales some are ''common'', rare, very rare and some are extremely rare.

To be fair, I tend to compare these to the coins I collect, most of which are Guatemala and Peru pillar minors. When the 1733 date is in the hundreds of examples known, it doesn’t seem very rare. Yes, broken down by type it gets more rare, and certainly among the Mexico eight reales it’s uncommon and desirable, but there’s probably more 1733 dated 8 reales Mexico coins (pillar) than there are 4 reales from Lima TOTAL, adding all dates together! Also probably true with Guatemala 1/2, 1 and 2 reales.

Suffice it to say, we’re using different yardsticks. I’m thinking numbers of coins in existence, regardless of variety and condition, I think you’re referring to comparative rarity within the series itself.

Compare any of them to US coins and they’d be Many multiples more valuable due to their rarity/vs demand.

The OP is conflating the coin's desirability with its scarcity. I didn't say the coin wasn't desirable. I'm saying it isn't scarce as a date because it isn't hard to buy.

Of course, "hard" is somewhat dependent upon each individual's criteria. I wasn't referring to varieties. Condition wise, I'm using "acceptable collectible condition" which excludes most known examples but many "details" coins.

I wouldn't expect to be able to buy this coin meeting this criterion right now, tomorrow or necessarily next week but don't believe it would take that long either. I presume it can be acquired through the dealer network without much difficulty for those who don't want to wait.

As for comparing it to other denominations from other mints, this other coinage is obviously scarcer, but availability is impacted by the difference in price. Invariably, higher priced coins are (much) easier to buy than (much) cheaper coins, even if comparably scarce. I own duplicates of some coins (Peru minors) where there is no point in selling because the value isn't enough to bother and I can't buy a comparably priced coin I like more with the proceeeds either.

Outside the 1732, any Mexico pillar 8R date is easily more common than all survivors of any denomination from Guatemala. Probably more common than all minors combined and maybe by a substantial margin. Same for the Peru 4R. The survival rate might be lower in some instances, but this is more than offset by the mintage.

PillarDollarCollector

@WCC said:

@SimonW said:
I’m not sure, the first one has an odd rim on the obverse, I would personally be wary, but I don’t know a lot about the 1730’s 8 reales.

I agree with WCC though, they’re not hard to find, just expensive. I like rarity more than popularity. This seems to be a high demand coin with low rarity.

As mentioned there are 9 variations of the 1733 8 reales some are ''common'', rare, very rare and some are extremely rare.

To be fair, I tend to compare these to the coins I collect, most of which are Guatemala and Peru pillar minors. When the 1733 date is in the hundreds of examples known, it doesn’t seem very rare. Yes, broken down by type it gets more rare, and certainly among the Mexico eight reales it’s uncommon and desirable, but there’s probably more 1733 dated 8 reales Mexico coins (pillar) than there are 4 reales from Lima TOTAL, adding all dates together! Also probably true with Guatemala 1/2, 1 and 2 reales.

Suffice it to say, we’re using different yardsticks. I’m thinking numbers of coins in existence, regardless of variety and condition, I think you’re referring to comparative rarity within the series itself.

Compare any of them to US coins and they’d be Many multiples more valuable due to their rarity/vs demand.

The OP is conflating the coin's desirability with its scarcity. I didn't say the coin wasn't desirable. I'm saying it isn't scarce as a date because it isn't hard to buy.

Of course, "hard" is somewhat dependent upon each individual's criteria. I wasn't referring to varieties. Condition wise, I'm using "acceptable collectible condition" which excludes most known examples but many "details" coins.

I wouldn't expect to be able to buy this coin meeting this criterion right now, tomorrow or necessarily next week but don't believe it would take that long either. I presume it can be acquired through the dealer network without much difficulty for those who don't want to wait.

As for comparing it to other denominations from other mints, this other coinage is obviously scarcer, but availability is impacted by the difference in price. Invariably, higher priced coins are (much) easier to buy than (much) cheaper coins, even if comparably scarce. I own duplicates of some coins (Peru minors) where there is no point in selling because the value isn't enough to bother and I can't buy a comparably priced coin I like more with the proceeeds either.

Outside the 1732, any Mexico pillar 8R date is easily more common than all survivors of any denomination from Guatemala. Probably more common than all minors combined and maybe by a substantial margin. Same for the Peru 4R. The survival rate might be lower in some instances, but this is more than offset by the mintage.

I think we all agree that other countries like Peru and the like are rarer that does not take away the 1733 8 reales been a special coin in that series and a great coin to own. The 1732 in all series (milled) are legendary it is not the same. The point of this topic was to see if people here think the 2 coins are real or fake not to debate the importance of the 1733 8 reales. Anyone that collects the 1732-1771 series will be proud to own any 1733 it is a trophy coin for us collecting that series and that goes for any of the 9 varieties common to extremely rare. I never tried comparing the 1732's against the 1733's it is just not the same as we all know. But again that does not take away the pride of ownership of a milled 1733 8 reales.

WCC

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

I think we all agree that other countries like Peru and the like are rarer that does not take away the 1733 8 reales been a special coin in that series and a great coin to own. The 1732 in all series (milled) are legendary it is not the same. The point of this topic was to see if people here think the 2 coins are real or fake not to debate the importance of the 1733 8 reales. Anyone that collects the 1732-1771 series will be proud to own any 1733 it is a trophy coin for us collecting that series and that goes for any of the 9 varieties common to extremely rare. I never tried comparing the 1732's against the 1733's it is just not the same as we all know. But again that does not take away the pride of ownership of a milled 1733 8 reales.

My initial reply in this thread was to your 10/28 post at 4:44 where you brought up the price. That's why I made my comment. It had nothing to do with "knocking" the coin which is how you seem to have been interpreting my posts.

PillarDollarCollector

@WCC said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

I think we all agree that other countries like Peru and the like are rarer that does not take away the 1733 8 reales been a special coin in that series and a great coin to own. The 1732 in all series (milled) are legendary it is not the same. The point of this topic was to see if people here think the 2 coins are real or fake not to debate the importance of the 1733 8 reales. Anyone that collects the 1732-1771 series will be proud to own any 1733 it is a trophy coin for us collecting that series and that goes for any of the 9 varieties common to extremely rare. I never tried comparing the 1732's against the 1733's it is just not the same as we all know. But again that does not take away the pride of ownership of a milled 1733 8 reales.

My initial reply in this thread was to your 10/28 post at 4:44 where you brought up the price. That's why I made my comment. It had nothing to do with "knocking" the coin which is how you seem to have been interpreting my posts.

No worries. No no you have your opinions it is OK I understand from based on what you collect that is how you view the 1733 8 reales. I view it differently because I collect the series. It is all good. Based on what you collect I understand your point of view since your series are much rarer in general.

SimonW

To be fair, I would be ecstatic to own a 1733 8 reales. I had a 1 real MX and I thought THAT was cool, but I sold it.

Crazy8s

"Since I do not charge for my humble opinion, you may value it as you please. The rarest/scarcest dates in the early 8 reales Mo mint series not from sea salvage in order are as follows. 1733 MxMF, 1732, 1733 MxF, 1733MoMF. They are the four "key" date coins in the series and always in high demand due to first year and only Mx mintmark."

Please let me clarify and correct an error.
The 4th coin listed should read 1733 MO F, the 1733 MO MF is the most common of the 1733s. I apologize for the typo

Regarding the comment that I am confusing date with variety.....semantics. Virtually every collector I know that collects Spanish Colonial coins, collects by DMA (Date, Mintmark, Assayer) and these are all considered "DMAs" in my collector world which may be quite different from others. Yes, they are all dated 1733 but distinctly different coins based on major design, assayer designations and mintmark designations. Varieties in my world would refer to overdates and over assayers, items that were not intentional design changes.
I think we can all agree that the early Pillar dollars are really interesting coins to collect, whether it be Mo mint, Lima mint, Guatemala mint, Potosi mint or wherever.

realeswatcher

@Crazy8s said:

Regarding the comment that I am confusing date with variety.....semantics. Virtually every collector I know that collects Spanish Colonial coins, collects by DMA (Date, Mintmark, Assayer) and these are all considered "DMAs" in my collector world which may be quite different from others. Yes, they are all dated 1733 but distinctly different coins based on major design, assayer designations and mintmark designations. Varieties in my world would refer to overdates and over assayers, items that were not intentional design changes.

That's generally true. However, two caveats to that would apply SPECIFICALLY TO 1733 pillars:

1) There are shipwreck collectors who will want a 1733-dated pillar from the 1733 Fleet and it really won't matter WHICH mintmark/assayer it is.

2) There are collectors who would just want ANY 1733 - again, no matter the mintark/assayer - to fill out a 1733 Mexico 8R type set - cob, klippe, pillar (and maybe also "klippe dies on cob flan").

Beyond that, yes, most collectors acknowledge different assayers as a major variety (and also MX vs. Mo mintmark, unique to 1733 within pillars)... but I would think there are DEFINITELY a few collectors out there who do a date run of Mexico pillar 8R and one per year of whatever variety would be fine. It's not like you're filling up a Whitman folder that insists you get an 1864-L or a small/medium letters 1829 1c, 1830 1c, etc.

Again, as noted, semantics and preference...

That said, if, as an exercise, we do consider things strictly by DATE alone (and I think that's what @WCC was getting at earlier in the thread)... I still don't see that ANY other non-1732 date for Mexico pillar 8R could be less common OVERALL than 1733

And again, this SHOULD be the case b/c of the large cob/klippe output that year.

Crazy8s

I agree completely with your post above.

PillarDollarCollector

As mentioned as a collector of the 1732-1771 Mexican 8 reales series the two dates that mean the most to me are 1732 & any 1733 (milled for both dates). I would like to own 2-3 varieties of the 1733 over time.