David- another wild clandistine strike is the 1915 Pan-Pac Half struck on a cut down $20 ST.G gold coin. One recently sold for $750k.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
“One thing about this particular group of Shenanigans (the 1970-S Quarters struck on older coins) that is different than the other Shenanigans is that the other stuff was all theoretically possible because it was struck on things that are found in Mints, i.e. blank planchets, but these were struck on things that had to be deliberately smuggled INTO the Mint to be struck. They have zero plausibility.”
It’s not just the group of 1970S Quarters struck on coins/tokens/medals or planchets that were smuggled IN.
There are also a handful of 1970S proof Kennedy Halves, and (2) known proof Ike Dollars struck in aluminum on Shell Gas Tokens clearly not originating from inside the U. S. Mint either.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
I think you could argue that an “assisted error” is another term for “deliberate counterfeit.”
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I respectfully disagree, as each quarter was a unique creation and specifically avoided imitating any other established coin. That appears to be the opposite of creating a counterfeit coin. As an example, what could the unique 1970-S "Barber Quarter" pretend to be anything other than its own surreal self?
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After 55 years in numismatics, I have observed that many of our nation's most cherished and iconic coins all likewise began their lives as "shenanigans". But through the patina of time they naturally evolve into numismatic treasures.
I would rather pay "shenanigan" prices now than Smithsonian-level prices in years to come once they mature.
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@ErrorsOnCoins said:
The mystery is why some are so enraged by coins like this.
I sure didn’t get the impression that was what you were talking about when you initially wrote:
“The gold quarter is an amazing error coin and yes this should be classified as an error coin because it is not what the mint intended.
This coin is highly collectable. The mystery just adds to the collectability. What a fun coin to own.”
It sounds like you chose to dodge the questions from @MasonG.
“The mystery"? You mean like making up nonsense stuff because you have the opportunity to? And that some people will be impressed by your efforts? That sort of mystery”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
It sounds like you chose to dodge the questions from @MasonG.
“The mystery"? You mean like making up nonsense stuff because you have the opportunity to? And that some people will be impressed by your efforts? That sort of mystery”
The mystery of the OP error is same as the mystery of the 1913 liberty nickel, is it not? Who made it, and how did they get it out of the mint? Presumably, their job would have been on the line, and it would not have been an easy task. In this case, there is the added question of how the host coin to be overstruck was snuck into the mint in the first place. Given that it happened 52 years ago, there is a good chance the answers will never be known.
@MFeld said:
It sounds like you chose to dodge the questions from @MasonG.
“The mystery"? You mean like making up nonsense stuff because you have the opportunity to? And that some people will be impressed by your efforts? That sort of mystery”
The mystery of the OP error is same as the mystery of the 1913 liberty nickel, is it not? Who made it, and how did they get it out of the mint? Presumably, their job would have been on the line, and it would not have been an easy task. In this case, there is the added question of how the host coin to be overstruck was snuck into the mint in the first place. Given that it happened 52 years ago, there is a good chance the answers will never be known.
That certainly sounds fair to me and it’s a far better answer than “The mystery is why some are so enraged by coins like this.”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MarkKelley said:
An intentional error is the same as a forgivable loan. Both are oxymorons.
You can forgive a loan... as long a you're the one that made it.
In that case it's no longer a loan, it's a gift. A loan by definition is paid back.
It's a loan that became a gift. A loan, but definition, is INTENDED to be paid back. It's still a loan, whether or not it is ever paid back. Or are you suggested that a loan in default is not a loan?
The mystery of the OP error is same as the mystery of the 1913 liberty nickel, is it not? Who made it, and how did they get it out of the mint? Presumably, their job would have been on the line, and it would not have been an easy task. In this case, there is the added question of how the host coin to be overstruck was snuck into the mint in the first place. Given that it happened 52 years ago, there is a good chance the answers will never be known.
I'm not a huge fan of the 1913 nickels either, but I would not put them in exactly the same category. I think what gives more legitimacy to the 1913 nickels is that their origin is murkier, and it is possible that they were intended to be part of regular issue coinage. To make these nickels someone had to prepare dies, which would seem to require skill, equipment, and access. That suggests it is plausible they were officially made, but not officially released, for some reason. I'm not saying that is necessarily exactly what happened but it is definitely possible. Being part of regular issue coinage helps a lot in terms of wide-spread appeal.
The gold Washington quarter has no claims to being a regular issue coin, or even an "error" of a regular issue coin using the common-man's definition of "error". That does not mean it's not collectible, but it will have a more niche following than the 1913 Liberty Head nickel.
Here is why it is OK to own this gold Quarter, which was included in this group of proof error coins.
These U.S proof error coins were auctioned by the State of California, after the U.S. Secret Service inspected and released them, determining that they were legal to own.
And as I mentioned earllier in this thread,
it has traded hands several times among some of the biggest names in numismatics, who are internationally respected and leaders in our industry.
The gold Buffalo Nickel, the (7) gold Indian Head Cents, the (2) gold Pan Pac Halves, numerous Two Headed and 2 Tailed modern coins AND type coins with Judd numbers, and countless other custom made rarities exist. These are all authenticated, certified and traded within the numismatic community.
This activity isn’t new. It’s been occuring for over 2 centuries in the U.S. The Judd book is loaded with clandestine and unique unexplainable rarities.
One that comes to mind that has at least been around and documented since 1861 is the unique 1795 Small Eagle Bust Dollar struck on a copper planchet, from an unknown die, certified by PCGS, plated in the Judd book, and defies logic as to why it was struck. I recently sold it in the mid six-figure range. It has it’s own thread in this forum.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
On a related note, I have often wondered when these intentionally-struck off-metal coins started to proliferate. I have a hypothesis that error collecting grew substantially after the 1955 doubled die Lincoln cent was discovered, as I could imagine at the time such a coin being widely described in the popular press as a rare "error". I have no data to support that hypothesis though.
But if it is broadly correct, it suggests to me that there would have been little or no profit incentive for "intentionally-struck off-metal coins" prior to 1955.
There are many intentionally produced off-metals prior to 1955. Those struck in gold are the most coveted.
This 1900 Indian Cent struck in GOLD has a famous pedigree of world-class collectors:
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
I have handled 3 of the 7 known and have done extensive research on them. Although it’s impossible to prove that they were struck intentionally, in my opinion they were clandestine and intentionally created rarities.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
The 1900 gold Indian Head Cent has a long and famous pedigree:
Col. E.H.R. Green; B.G. Johnson; John Beck
So even IF it was struck at a late date
( which I doubt) it still can be traced back to almost a century ago.
And…
Even if the 1795 Dollar in copper was struck later, it can be traced back to 1861.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
I have handled 3 of the 7 known and have done extensive research on them. Although it’s impossible to prove that they were struck intentionally, in my opinion they were clandestine and intentionally created rarities.
Thanks, Mike.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Byers said:
There are many intentionally produced off-metals prior to 1955. Those struck in gold are the most coveted.
This 1900 Indian Cent struck in GOLD has a famous pedigree of world-class collectors:
Do you know how much it sold for into the "Green and Beck Collection"? If it sold for Big Money then I would agree there was enough profit incentive even back then to do arguably criminal things. If the value at the time was about $2.75 then it seems more like fairly harmless playing-around.
The Beck Collection was sold by the Abner Kreisberg Corporation, in January 1975.
I bought it out of the auction for $7,750. which was an enormous amount of money, at the time, for a mint error, whether intentional or deliberate.
Fred Weinberg was the underbidder.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
When B.G. Johnson gave Stack’s his inventory list on March 24, 1942 he valued the 1900 gold Indian Head Cent at $210.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@Byers said:
There are many intentionally produced off-metals prior to 1955. Those struck in gold are the most coveted.
This 1900 Indian Cent struck in GOLD has a famous pedigree of world-class collectors:
I am on record as saying that I believe that these gold cents are probably unintentional errors. They are certainly PLAUSIBLE. The same applies to the gold Buffalo nickel.
I do not consider the 1970-S Proofs struck on much older coins to be plausible, just as I do not consider an Ike dollar struck on three perfectly placed cent or dime planchets to be plausible. They are intentional.
I was working for the ANA when Dr. Berry donated his collection to the ANA Museum. The ANA Curator at the time asked me to look at the collection so that he could better understand them if he was ever to place any of them on display.
Basically he told me that Dr, Berry had donated the collection because he had become disillusioned with errors in general once he had found out that he had been played for a sucker by the people making and selling the SFAO errors.
That is why I object to the intentionally-made errors as a class. To me they diminish the desirability of all errors. Your mileage may vary.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I sold many proof and mint state error coins to Dr. Berry in the mid 1970’s. So did Lonesome John, Fred Weinberg, and others.
I sold him the Proof Ike Dollar clover leaf of 3 Nickels mated together, which has never surfaced since.
It was made crystal clear to Dr. Berry that these were intentionally created proof errors, and it’s obvious to anyone that they were.
Maybe he also donated his collection for tax reasons or publicity. Logic suggests his motives were several. That’s common sense.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Here is the other known Ike Dollar “clover leaf” set of (3) Ikes on Dimes, mated and struck together:
I doubt that anyone has any confusion regarding the fact that this set was intentionally struck this way.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
You cannot beat the publicity and notoriety of a spectacular error coin regardless of the circumstances. Still the spurious intentions ruin the significance IMO.
PEDIGREE gives the history of the coin’s ownership.
What gave this coin LEGITIMACY is that this gold Quarter was included in the group of proof error coins auctioned by the State of California, after the U.S. Secret Service inspected and released them, determining that they were legal to own.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
I don't care. The darn thing should not be out there, and any collector who thinks that this is "an error" has his or her head screwed on wrong. This is worse that the Proof Ike dollar struck on a cent planchet, which was confiscated.
It would have no place in my collection.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The Secret Service? Isn't this the same organization that destroyed authentic 1969-S doubled die cents that they had confiscated, having confused them with counterfeit 1969 doubled die cents? But hey- I'm sure they got it right this time.
Thanks but no thanks... I will look to the Churchill DDR that I posted on this forum as well as the Australian 1919 I dot 1d DDO and DDR featured on the same coin. Imagine a coin that has both a DDO and DDR and the odds/chances of that happening? Both of these coins deserve far more attention that what has already been spent on these 1970-s proof quarter so-called errors.
Seems that the real lesson here is one of priorities and what passes the straight face test.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@BillJones said:
Slabbed and now collectable??????
I don't care. The darn thing should not be out there, and any collector who thinks that this is "an error" has his or her head screwed on wrong.
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Actually, as a young "specimen" I had my head screwed on wrong. That was an unintentional error. But then I discovered numismatics in 1969, and got my head screwed-on correctly. Thus intentionally fixing under official supervision the unintentional first release! Now the only thing remaining is for me to be slabbed ("Rarities Level").
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some collectors and dealers love these coins, others don’t.
Yes, rumor has it that 50 years ago that off metal was turned it.
Times have changed obviously.
20 years ago, this happened:
The group of proof error coins were auctioned by the State of California, after the U.S. Secret Service inspected and released them, determining that they were legal to own.
And they are authenticated, certified, bought and sold by dealers and collectors and auctioned by the largest coin auction houses.
This gold Quarter was in that group, and was part of the set of 1970S Quarter overstrikes.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
David- in addition to your (3) 1970S proof overstruck Quarters, the (2) Ike Dollars that you handled are simply amazing too!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@MasonG said:
The Secret Service? Isn't this the same organization that destroyed authentic 1969-S doubled die cents that they had confiscated, having confused them with counterfeit 1969 doubled die cents? But hey- I'm sure they got it right this time.
A perfect example of why none of us should want the government to be in the business of seizing our coins or otherwise dictating what we can and cannot collect.
I handled this unique aluminum Cent twice. It’s listed in Judd and is in Roger’s book. I have always been curious about the details of it departing the U.S. Mint in Phili:
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@IkesT said:
A perfect example of why none of us should want the government to be in the business of seizing our coins or otherwise dictating what we can and cannot collect.
I don't care what you or anyone else collects. If these novelties fascinate you, knock yourself out.
I am, however, disappointed to find that the people entrusted with running the mint ate apparently not fully in charge of what they produce and allow to be released. I do recognize that those who profit from this have a different opinion.
@MasonG said:
The Secret Service? Isn't this the same organization that destroyed authentic 1969-S doubled die cents that they had confiscated, having confused them with counterfeit 1969 doubled die cents? But hey- I'm sure they got it right this time.
FWIW, during my time with ANACS (1978-1984) I sometimes taught the Summer Seminar Counterfeit Detection Course, and one year I had as a student a United States Secret Service agent. We chatted before the course began, and I asked him if he had any problem with the fact that we would be handling counterfeit and alter U.S. coins. He said no, and that the Secret Service knew what we did and that they liked us because we got a lot of counterfeit coins off the market and out of circulation. We were doing their job at no cost to them.
He also told me that he had been sent to take the course because nobody at the Secret Service knew anything about counterfeit coins. They only knew counterfeit currency. Whenever they were asked about a possible counterfeit coin, they always had to send it over to the Mint Lab and ask them, and it typically took several months to get an answer back. They wanted somebody to be able to make basic determinations of authenticity or not.
So, there is a fair chance that whenever the Secret Service was asked about these coins, the question was referred over to the U.S. Mint, at whose facility in San Francisco the pieces were made. If this happened, and we do not know if it did or did not, the Mint would then have been faced with the option of condemning the pieces and embarrassing itself, or declaring them legal to own. Whatever the situation actually was, the coins were declared legal to own, and so they are today.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
So, there is a fair chance that whenever the Secret Service was asked about these coins, the question was referred over to the U.S. Mint, at whose facility in San Francisco the pieces were made. If this happened, and we do not know if it did or did not, the Mint would then have been faced with the option of condemning the pieces and embarrassing itself, or declaring them legal to own. Whatever the situation actually was, the coins were declared legal to own, and so they are today.
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
These coins are part of United States numismatic history and are legal to own. They are highly sought after by collectors.
I personally have never owned one and thus never profited from these. I absolutely love the coins.
The highest bid I have ever done for a coin was for a year 2000 intentional mint error coin. I got outbid by a collector.
Back to the 1970 errors, I was 8 years old at the time.
They are legal to own, happened over 50 years ago, get over it haters.
There are countless legal-to-own coins other than (both intentional and unintentional) errors that some collectors don’t like. And many of them were produced/“happened” a lot longer than 50 years ago. Get over it.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Hopefully now people will respect what others collect, even if it is different from what they like!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Comments
@DFrohman
David- another wild clandistine strike is the 1915 Pan-Pac Half struck on a cut down $20 ST.G gold coin. One recently sold for $750k.
@CaptHenway stated:
“One thing about this particular group of Shenanigans (the 1970-S Quarters struck on older coins) that is different than the other Shenanigans is that the other stuff was all theoretically possible because it was struck on things that are found in Mints, i.e. blank planchets, but these were struck on things that had to be deliberately smuggled INTO the Mint to be struck. They have zero plausibility.”
It’s not just the group of 1970S Quarters struck on coins/tokens/medals or planchets that were smuggled IN.
There are also a handful of 1970S proof Kennedy Halves, and (2) known proof Ike Dollars struck in aluminum on Shell Gas Tokens clearly not originating from inside the U. S. Mint either.
Really? Really? How about "Why is it OK to buy this coin but not a 1933 Saint which was struck on much more legal circumstances?"
I think you could argue that an “assisted error” is another term for “deliberate counterfeit.”
@santinidollar said:
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I respectfully disagree, as each quarter was a unique creation and specifically avoided imitating any other established coin. That appears to be the opposite of creating a counterfeit coin. As an example, what could the unique 1970-S "Barber Quarter" pretend to be anything other than its own surreal self?
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After 55 years in numismatics, I have observed that many of our nation's most cherished and iconic coins all likewise began their lives as "shenanigans". But through the patina of time they naturally evolve into numismatic treasures.
I would rather pay "shenanigan" prices now than Smithsonian-level prices in years to come once they mature.
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I sure didn’t get the impression that was what you were talking about when you initially wrote:
“The gold quarter is an amazing error coin and yes this should be classified as an error coin because it is not what the mint intended.
This coin is highly collectable. The mystery just adds to the collectability. What a fun coin to own.”
It sounds like you chose to dodge the questions from @MasonG.
“The mystery"? You mean like making up nonsense stuff because you have the opportunity to? And that some people will be impressed by your efforts? That sort of mystery”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Unfortunately, coins worthy of attention and further research are overshadowed by what does not seem plausible.
Sad... and I'll leave it at that
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The mystery of the OP error is same as the mystery of the 1913 liberty nickel, is it not? Who made it, and how did they get it out of the mint? Presumably, their job would have been on the line, and it would not have been an easy task. In this case, there is the added question of how the host coin to be overstruck was snuck into the mint in the first place. Given that it happened 52 years ago, there is a good chance the answers will never be known.
That certainly sounds fair to me and it’s a far better answer than “The mystery is why some are so enraged by coins like this.”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's a loan that became a gift. A loan, but definition, is INTENDED to be paid back. It's still a loan, whether or not it is ever paid back. Or are you suggested that a loan in default is not a loan?
I'm not a huge fan of the 1913 nickels either, but I would not put them in exactly the same category. I think what gives more legitimacy to the 1913 nickels is that their origin is murkier, and it is possible that they were intended to be part of regular issue coinage. To make these nickels someone had to prepare dies, which would seem to require skill, equipment, and access. That suggests it is plausible they were officially made, but not officially released, for some reason. I'm not saying that is necessarily exactly what happened but it is definitely possible. Being part of regular issue coinage helps a lot in terms of wide-spread appeal.
The gold Washington quarter has no claims to being a regular issue coin, or even an "error" of a regular issue coin using the common-man's definition of "error". That does not mean it's not collectible, but it will have a more niche following than the 1913 Liberty Head nickel.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Here is why it is OK to own this gold Quarter, which was included in this group of proof error coins.
These U.S proof error coins were auctioned by the State of California, after the U.S. Secret Service inspected and released them, determining that they were legal to own.
And as I mentioned earllier in this thread,
it has traded hands several times among some of the biggest names in numismatics, who are internationally respected and leaders in our industry.
The gold Buffalo Nickel, the (7) gold Indian Head Cents, the (2) gold Pan Pac Halves, numerous Two Headed and 2 Tailed modern coins AND type coins with Judd numbers, and countless other custom made rarities exist. These are all authenticated, certified and traded within the numismatic community.
This activity isn’t new. It’s been occuring for over 2 centuries in the U.S. The Judd book is loaded with clandestine and unique unexplainable rarities.
One that comes to mind that has at least been around and documented since 1861 is the unique 1795 Small Eagle Bust Dollar struck on a copper planchet, from an unknown die, certified by PCGS, plated in the Judd book, and defies logic as to why it was struck. I recently sold it in the mid six-figure range. It has it’s own thread in this forum.
https://mikebyers.com/44551874.html
On a related note, I have often wondered when these intentionally-struck off-metal coins started to proliferate. I have a hypothesis that error collecting grew substantially after the 1955 doubled die Lincoln cent was discovered, as I could imagine at the time such a coin being widely described in the popular press as a rare "error". I have no data to support that hypothesis though.
But if it is broadly correct, it suggests to me that there would have been little or no profit incentive for "intentionally-struck off-metal coins" prior to 1955.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Hmm maybe if someone “abandons” some 1964 Peace Dollars in a SDB, they can enter the collecting public.
There are many intentionally produced off-metals prior to 1955. Those struck in gold are the most coveted.
This 1900 Indian Cent struck in GOLD has a famous pedigree of world-class collectors:
Mike, I didn’t realize that the gold Indian cent “error” was assumed to have been made intentionally.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Hi Mark
I have handled 3 of the 7 known and have done extensive research on them. Although it’s impossible to prove that they were struck intentionally, in my opinion they were clandestine and intentionally created rarities.
Yes, i always assumed it could have been intentional but it could have been accidental. Was it struck at a later date?
The 1900 gold Indian Head Cent has a long and famous pedigree:
Col. E.H.R. Green; B.G. Johnson; John Beck
So even IF it was struck at a late date
( which I doubt) it still can be traced back to almost a century ago.
And…
Even if the 1795 Dollar in copper was struck later, it can be traced back to 1861.
Thanks, Mike.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Do you know how much it sold for into the "Green and Beck Collection"? If it sold for Big Money then I would agree there was enough profit incentive even back then to do arguably criminal things. If the value at the time was about $2.75 then it seems more like fairly harmless playing-around.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
The Beck Collection was sold by the Abner Kreisberg Corporation, in January 1975.
I bought it out of the auction for $7,750. which was an enormous amount of money, at the time, for a mint error, whether intentional or deliberate.
Fred Weinberg was the underbidder.
When B.G. Johnson gave Stack’s his inventory list on March 24, 1942 he valued the 1900 gold Indian Head Cent at $210.
I am on record as saying that I believe that these gold cents are probably unintentional errors. They are certainly PLAUSIBLE. The same applies to the gold Buffalo nickel.
I do not consider the 1970-S Proofs struck on much older coins to be plausible, just as I do not consider an Ike dollar struck on three perfectly placed cent or dime planchets to be plausible. They are intentional.
I was working for the ANA when Dr. Berry donated his collection to the ANA Museum. The ANA Curator at the time asked me to look at the collection so that he could better understand them if he was ever to place any of them on display.
Basically he told me that Dr, Berry had donated the collection because he had become disillusioned with errors in general once he had found out that he had been played for a sucker by the people making and selling the SFAO errors.
That is why I object to the intentionally-made errors as a class. To me they diminish the desirability of all errors. Your mileage may vary.
TD
I sold many proof and mint state error coins to Dr. Berry in the mid 1970’s. So did Lonesome John, Fred Weinberg, and others.
I sold him the Proof Ike Dollar clover leaf of 3 Nickels mated together, which has never surfaced since.
It was made crystal clear to Dr. Berry that these were intentionally created proof errors, and it’s obvious to anyone that they were.
Maybe he also donated his collection for tax reasons or publicity. Logic suggests his motives were several. That’s common sense.
Here is the other known Ike Dollar “clover leaf” set of (3) Ikes on Dimes, mated and struck together:
I doubt that anyone has any confusion regarding the fact that this set was intentionally struck this way.
I like how just because 'important" so and so owned the coin it magically now has legitimacy.
You cannot beat the publicity and notoriety of a spectacular error coin regardless of the circumstances. Still the spurious intentions ruin the significance IMO.
PEDIGREE gives the history of the coin’s ownership.
What gave this coin LEGITIMACY is that this gold Quarter was included in the group of proof error coins auctioned by the State of California, after the U.S. Secret Service inspected and released them, determining that they were legal to own.
Slabbed and now collectable??????
I don't care. The darn thing should not be out there, and any collector who thinks that this is "an error" has his or her head screwed on wrong. This is worse that the Proof Ike dollar struck on a cent planchet, which was confiscated.
It would have no place in my collection.
The Secret Service? Isn't this the same organization that destroyed authentic 1969-S doubled die cents that they had confiscated, having confused them with counterfeit 1969 doubled die cents? But hey- I'm sure they got it right this time.
@ErrorsOnCoins
Thanks but no thanks... I will look to the Churchill DDR that I posted on this forum as well as the Australian 1919 I dot 1d DDO and DDR featured on the same coin. Imagine a coin that has both a DDO and DDR and the odds/chances of that happening? Both of these coins deserve far more attention that what has already been spent on these 1970-s proof quarter so-called errors.
Seems that the real lesson here is one of priorities and what passes the straight face test.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
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Actually, as a young "specimen" I had my head screwed on wrong. That was an unintentional error. But then I discovered numismatics in 1969, and got my head screwed-on correctly. Thus intentionally fixing under official supervision the unintentional first release! Now the only thing remaining is for me to be slabbed ("Rarities Level").
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some collectors and dealers love these coins, others don’t.
Yes, rumor has it that 50 years ago that off metal was turned it.
Times have changed obviously.
20 years ago, this happened:
The group of proof error coins were auctioned by the State of California, after the U.S. Secret Service inspected and released them, determining that they were legal to own.
And they are authenticated, certified, bought and sold by dealers and collectors and auctioned by the largest coin auction houses.
This gold Quarter was in that group, and was part of the set of 1970S Quarter overstrikes.
@DFrohman
David- in addition to your (3) 1970S proof overstruck Quarters, the (2) Ike Dollars that you handled are simply amazing too!
Thank you!
Is the new mantra on this coin forum, "Collect what you like and bash what you do not like"?
@ErrorsOnCoins
Chris- you are spot on!
Sometimes pictures illustrate what words are simply unable to capture... how often have you encountered a coin such as this?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
A perfect example of why none of us should want the government to be in the business of seizing our coins or otherwise dictating what we can and cannot collect.
Error: a deficiency or imperfection in structure or function (Merriam-Webster)
You can tell who is in the error coin business...
I handled this unique aluminum Cent twice. It’s listed in Judd and is in Roger’s book. I have always been curious about the details of it departing the U.S. Mint in Phili:
https://mikebyers.com/12229741.html
I don't care what you or anyone else collects. If these novelties fascinate you, knock yourself out.
I am, however, disappointed to find that the people entrusted with running the mint ate apparently not fully in charge of what they produce and allow to be released. I do recognize that those who profit from this have a different opinion.
FWIW, during my time with ANACS (1978-1984) I sometimes taught the Summer Seminar Counterfeit Detection Course, and one year I had as a student a United States Secret Service agent. We chatted before the course began, and I asked him if he had any problem with the fact that we would be handling counterfeit and alter U.S. coins. He said no, and that the Secret Service knew what we did and that they liked us because we got a lot of counterfeit coins off the market and out of circulation. We were doing their job at no cost to them.
He also told me that he had been sent to take the course because nobody at the Secret Service knew anything about counterfeit coins. They only knew counterfeit currency. Whenever they were asked about a possible counterfeit coin, they always had to send it over to the Mint Lab and ask them, and it typically took several months to get an answer back. They wanted somebody to be able to make basic determinations of authenticity or not.
So, there is a fair chance that whenever the Secret Service was asked about these coins, the question was referred over to the U.S. Mint, at whose facility in San Francisco the pieces were made. If this happened, and we do not know if it did or did not, the Mint would then have been faced with the option of condemning the pieces and embarrassing itself, or declaring them legal to own. Whatever the situation actually was, the coins were declared legal to own, and so they are today.
TD
"Close enough for government work", then?
These coins are part of United States numismatic history and are legal to own. They are highly sought after by collectors.
I personally have never owned one and thus never profited from these. I absolutely love the coins.
The highest bid I have ever done for a coin was for a year 2000 intentional mint error coin. I got outbid by a collector.
Back to the 1970 errors, I was 8 years old at the time.
They are legal to own, happened over 50 years ago, get over it haters.
There are countless legal-to-own coins other than (both intentional and unintentional) errors that some collectors don’t like. And many of them were produced/“happened” a lot longer than 50 years ago. Get over it.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well put Mark!
Hopefully now people will respect what others collect, even if it is different from what they like!
I feel the same way about counterfeit coins and artificial toning. If people want to collect them, have at it.
[And hasn't that always been the mantra around here?]