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1910 10 dollar Indian, any chance this is a proof? Updated 12-23

2windy2fish2windy2fish Posts: 817 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited December 23, 2022 11:38AM in U.S. Coin Forum


I received my PCGS Order today, five 10 Dollar Libs and 2 Indians…The 1926 was graded MS62, the coin in question came back Unc details Cleaned.
Today i compared the 2 coins side by side, the 1926 is an average looking coin with plenty of luster and it’s share of bag marks…the 1910 however has very few bag marks, the rims are quite square, details very sharp and the coin has a satiny look to it, which could lead to a details grade…
I would imagine someone here has seen a few of these..
Please advise.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No chance.

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    goldengolden Posts: 9,069 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would say that is not a proof. Proofs are very distinctive. Cheers, RickO

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not even close to looking like a proof of that era.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PF66+.

    That coin deserves every bit of that grade!

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nope

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,464 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No chance at all. RGDS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

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    DrewUDrewU Posts: 151 ✭✭✭

    Whoa!! Way to go OP!

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    DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Holy Cow! Thats an upgrade if I've ever seen one, especially if you didn't pay proof money. Congrats!

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    Eldorado9Eldorado9 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You gotta be kidding! Amazing! Big Congrats......

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    Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow! Good on you!

    My current "Box of 20"

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    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Excellent move!

    Collector, occasional seller

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    ThreeCentSilverFLThreeCentSilverFL Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Holy cow.

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    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow! YOU SUCK!

    I’ll admit, I thought for a bit when I originally saw it it might be a proof. I’ve seen more than one matte proof come back in a PCGS cleaned holder now. However, when I couldn’t match any die markers, I put it to the back of my mind and forgot about it.

    My utmost congratulations to you and your huge score. If I were you, I’d keep it. I don’t think I’ll see that again in my lifetime :smile:

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

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    2windy2fish2windy2fish Posts: 817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl Thank you!! Speaking of die markers..there is a tiny spot on to the left of the headdress on my coin that i was able to match with one of the plate coins at PCGS, truly can only be seen in hand with a loupe, ...the strike was very crisp but the matte/satin finish is what convinced me...Also, it is important to the story to note that i had no inkling that the coin was proof when i submitted to PCGS...so it was noted on the submission form as a business strike..
    Anyone here attending the Portland, Oregon WCC show this weekend? I will have the coin with me and will note my PCGS user name at my table..

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    will be interesting to see if it crosses in the PF holder!

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    will be interesting to see if it crosses in the PF holder!

    Lance, I spent 30 minutes battling with writing a long response to your statement, mainly about why anyone would cross the coin (not directed at you at all, but to the overwhelming push to cross). I eventually gave up for fear of the hammer.

    However, I felt that I needed to share one thing. There are so many things that concern me with the grading companies in general and what I have observed. I can only hope that things will change before the companies inevitably turn to YNs to fill the void of leaving graders. Grading coins now has an element that requires the collector to catch mistakes. I don't know how many YNs can learn to grade the way I did. I know that if I tried it now without the knowledge I learned, I would fail. Too many things are changing, way too fast.

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

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    ToreyTorey Posts: 132 ✭✭✭

    Good on you. I didn't comment earlier but I was in the "not a chance" crowd from the Trueview image. I guess it's hard to judge a coin from a singular image. Congrats!

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl said:

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    will be interesting to see if it crosses in the PF holder!

    Lance, I spent 30 minutes battling with writing a long response to your statement, mainly about why anyone would cross the coin (not directed at you at all, but to the overwhelming push to cross). I eventually gave up for fear of the hammer.

    However, I felt that I needed to share one thing. There are so many things that concern me with the grading companies in general and what I have observed. I can only hope that things will change before the companies inevitably turn to YNs to fill the void of leaving graders. Grading coins now has an element that requires the collector to catch mistakes. I don't know how many YNs can learn to grade the way I did. I know that if I tried it now without the knowledge I learned, I would fail. Too many things are changing, way too fast.

    no doubt, probably nothing you would say that hasn't been said here on ATS forums as well. pick your battles because there will be plenty. ;)

    nothing wrong with typing out a response, reading it and seeing how it may be perceived and then not submitting it. i've had plenty of those as of late for a myriad of reasons.

    i've (we've) seen plenty of these "hairy" situations. time will tell how it pans out.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    SurfinxHISurfinxHI Posts: 2,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm glad to see the folks on here fess up to making the wrong call. Makes me think a bit more of them.

    But it also makes me think you shouldn't judge so firmly from a picture, especially about proofs....

    Dead people tell interesting tales.
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    rec78rec78 Posts: 5,691 ✭✭✭✭✭

    WOW! Great cherry-pick. I do not have much knowledge about these, but, weren't proof coins of this year called matte proofs?. Matte proofs have a different appearance and can sometimes be mistaken for circulation srtike coins.
    PCGS says Unc. NGC says Proof. Even with my very limited knowledge on this I am going with NGC on this one.

    image
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    VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow! Coinfacts estimates half of 204 piece mintage made it out of the mint and 50 to 75 remain extant.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2022 11:45AM

    @rec78 said:
    WOW! Great cherry-pick. I do not have much knowledge about these, but, weren't proof coins of this year called matte proofs?. Matte proofs have a different appearance and can sometimes be mistaken for circulation srtike coins.
    PCGS says Unc. NGC says Proof. Even with my very limited knowledge on this I am going with NGC on this one.

    The Proof gold coins from 1909 and 1910 are typically refereed to as “Satin” or “Roman” finish, while those dated 1908 and 1911-1915 are called “Sandblast” or “Matte”. The former are noticeably brighter in their appearance.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Congratulations and huge victory for a determined submitter! Curious what the history of that rare coin was, as those usually passed from serious collector to collector. I'd try cac.

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    rec78rec78 Posts: 5,691 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @rec78 said:
    WOW! Great cherry-pick. I do not have much knowledge about these, but, weren't proof coins of this year called matte proofs?. Matte proofs have a different appearance and can sometimes be mistaken for circulation srtike coins.
    PCGS says Unc. NGC says Proof. Even with my very limited knowledge on this I am going with NGC on this one.

    The Proof gold coins from 1909 and 1910 are typically refereed to as “Satin” or “Roman” finish, while those dated 1908 and 1911-1915 are called “Sandblast” or “Matte”. The former are noticeably brighter in their appearance.

    For anyone who cares to read it, here’s a Heritage lot description on the subject:

    Thanks Mark! Much appreciated!

    image
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    BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭

    I am really torn on this one. I've been looking at the OP's coin pics for 15 minutes, comparing it to known proofs, and I just can't convince myself it's really a proof, despite what NGC says. I'm not saying the graders made a mistake, heck I haven't seen the coin in person, but I do think this example warrants further review before finding its way onto the market. One thing I do know for certain is that bigger mistakes have been made at the slab factories than a misattributed proof.

    OP, please keep us posted on the results of your crossover. Fingers crossed that I'm wrong!

    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist.
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    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @2windy2fish

    Just out of curiosity, why would you cross the coin?

    I just don't get it, but I suppose that could be me.

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

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    privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 3,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Definitely a congrats due on that. B)

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc

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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hate being wrong but in this case I was dead wrong.
    Congratulations my coin brother, waaaay nice👍👍

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    SIowhandSIowhand Posts: 319 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why does it say to contact ngc customer service when looking up the Cert? Not sure what that means.

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SIowhand said:
    Why does it say to contact ngc customer service when looking up the Cert? Not sure what that means.

    good call.

    https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/5852534-001/62/

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    2windy2fish2windy2fish Posts: 817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Any one have any idea what that means? Here’s a screen shot from the day the grade posted..

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    lermishlermish Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @2windy2fish said:
    Any one have any idea what that means? Here’s a screen shot from the day the grade posted..

    Don't mean to be pessimistic because I want this to be a proof but I would lean towards Mechanical Error and they rescinded the proof designation.

    Goes without saying you should call first thing tomorrow.🤞

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    Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Toss in 19 more coins and send them in to bulk and have them back in 2 weeks. Or you can wait for two or three months if you don't want to send in 20 coins and congrats very nice.



    Hoard the keys.
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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2022 3:09AM

    @2windy2fish said:
    Any one have any idea what that means? Here’s a screen shot from the day the grade posted..

    Did you happen to write Proof, rather than MS on the submission invoice? Either way, it’s starting to sound like the “Proof” designation was a mechanical error.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Curious who here would have "reported" this to NGC for them to take such immediate action? I'd think they would have to examine it to make that decision.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    Curious who here would have "reported" this to NGC for them to take such immediate action? I'd think they would have to examine it to make that decision.

    It's possible that no one reported it and NGC still caught the error (if one was made).

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,901 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe they have a "finalizer" who checks all the data entry to catch errors. :)

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    FranklinHalfAddictFranklinHalfAddict Posts: 651 ✭✭✭✭✭

    After comparing the original PCGS TVs of your coin to the images of the proof I believe NGC made the right decision.

    The strongest diagnostic, to me, is the reverse lettering. On the MS coin there are many flat spots on the letters and overall they aren’t very sharp.
    On the proof coin and your coin they are all very crisp, fully struck and have rounded peaks at every high point.

    I’d say 100% definitely a proof.

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    2windy2fish2windy2fish Posts: 817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld The coin was submitted as a proof, i am baffled by this last turn of events, just doesn’t make sense to me that they changed their minds after the coin left the building….
    As the saying goes “Be curious not furious “
    After the dust settles i will update the post..

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @2windy2fish said:
    @MFeld The coin was submitted as a proof, i am baffled by this last turn of events, just doesn’t make sense to me that they changed their minds after the coin left the building….
    As the saying goes “Be curious not furious “
    After the dust settles i will update the post..

    Best of luck. I've seen more than a few instances where grading companies have made errors of that type.

    I'd be less pessimistic if the coin had been submitted as a business strike and the designation, purposely changed to a Proof by NGC. The fact that it was submitted as a Proof makes it much easier to understand if NGC overlooked that - hence, a "mechanical error". Additionally, it didn't look like a Proof to me, though I'd love to be wrong.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2022 11:38AM

    I've never seen this before. Maybe there is an NGC grader among us who agrees this coin needs to be revisited, and they decided to pull the cert in the meantime.

    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist.

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