What does "original skin/toning" look like?
dunkleosteus430
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I know that after a certain amount of time, all coins develop some toning. However, I don't totally know how old an untoned coin can be without being "helped." I hear lots of people here praising some coins for having "original skin," and I understand the concept but only have a vague idea of what it looks like. I also assume that not every silver/copper type coin tones the same way, and as somebody who is trying to make a type set, that is very valuable information. What coins can you expect to see without toning? Can a WLH naturally be blast white? If so, how common would that be? And what about a Morgan dollar from the 1880s? Or capped bust coinage?
Thanks for any help in understanding this - and I would love it if anyone could share coins with "original skin" or even terminal toning (which is a concept I can grasp, but haven't seen many examples of.)
Edited to add that I was looking for answers pertaining to higher graded coins, such as mid-XF to MS, as there seems to be a much wider range of colors and looks. However, if you have a good example of a lower graded coin with original toning/skin, feel free to share.
Young Numismatist
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Coins in the middle of a roll stored in low humidity can be basically untoned
Mr_Spud
This is a good set of questions and we could discuss the answers (or partial answers) for quite some time.
Most all coins should develop some level of toning with time. Even gold, since gold coins are generally not pure gold and have trace amounts of silver and/or copper in them. Just as there are various ways a coin can tone and various appearances a toned coin can take, there are also various answers to how long a coin can remain untoned "without help".
As for your specific questions, I have no trouble believing a WLH can be blast white and original. There are still coins around that had been stored in original rolls for many years and other coins that were stored in plastic roll containers shortly after release. If it's a 1916 or 1917 and blasty white then I would immediately think it had been dipped, but something from the mid-'30s onward need not be dipped to be white. Morgan dollars from the 1880s can absolutely be untoned and original since this is in the wheelhouse for coins that were stored for decades in US Mint bags and later released to the general public. I don't know the percentage of blast white Morgans that might have escaped the dip jar, but depending upon the date there may be an enormous number that are original and untoned. Capped Bust coinage, however, is not going to be white (untoned) unless it was either dipped or sealed away from the environment. If some Capped Bust coinage had been dropped into glass shortly upon coinage then I would expect it to be untoned. The rest...not so much.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I believe this one is an example of original skin.
Yes, they can. The later dates are quite common.
Extremely common.
Unicorns.
I have a few that I believe are completely original:
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Thanks for all the answers so far. Something that I meant to say but forgot to mention in the OP was, "what does original skin/toning look like on higher grade coins (AU-MS, maybe mid-XF.)" There seems to be a wider range of looks in these grades. All answers are still helpful!
Young Numismatist
For an MS coin, I think this one is original "skin"
For a circulated silver coin....
And for Early Copper...
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I think these are original skin:
There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who do not.
Here is a 1958 double mint set. This is about as original as these coins can get. It was hard to photograph the whole set together, but the silver coins have very attractive (IMO) blue/purple or green/red/orange toning to them.
Toning Example:
Coin Photographer.
Serious skin on this one:
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A very good question and one that is complex and difficult to answer. While I can appreciate many coins with original skin original is not always particularly pleasant to view. For what I collect, Lincolns this coin has what I like to think of as original skin, however it is not difficult to find Lincolns from the early teens that are blast red and have original skin.
As to your request for a terminal coin, I do not have any closeups so these slab shots will have to do. Very dark, darker than the photos suggest but with strong luster bands under the tone.
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For silver, I think of original skin as only applicable to high AU & MS coins and occurs over time as air and other chemicals come in contact with the coin, such as in a display case, mint bag, album, wrapper etc. Mostly does not progress to a true color, toning stage, and is more like a haze. I think the 1875 coin above is a good example as are some of those 58 mint sets. I think my MS 86-O below has original skin and developed some rim toning.
When a coin is circulated more and comes in contact with dirt, oils on the hands, etc. it becomes what I would just refer to as just a nice original look, but not skin, as the circulation effectively removed the skin. I think the 03S below has an original look & patina, probably from being in a leather pouch or something that imparted that brown look, but does not have any skin left. JMHO.
These three coins have kind of a white, hazy skin. You might describe both of these coins as white, but they clearly different from an actual blast white coin that has been treated or been well-preserved. It's subtle enough that you don't always notice it when you are new to collecting.
There are 62.5% silver, so they tend to develop a "skin" faster than 90% silver.
This 4th coin has been processed and doesn't have a skin. If I see a coin like that, it doesn't look right to me. If the coin was MS68 or 69 then maybe I'd believe it because it could have really never been handled or touched and would be perfectly preserved. But for a coin to be 62-65, it's been handled and probably seen a thing or two. I would expect a coin like that to have a little more character.
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"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Great questions!
I hate to be short but looking at lots of coins and asking questions like these is the best way to find your answer.
For what it's worth, I see several coins posted here that I wouldn't call original skin.
AU 53 CAC
https://player.vimeo.com/video/745588435
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Another important point is that a coin's patina and "skin" will look significantly different based on what it's made of, how it's made, and how it is stored. Proofs develop different patinas from business strikes. Copper is different from silver. There is even variation among the silver coins and between the mints. There are patinas that would look right on one coin that wouldn't look right on another coin. Mint packaging from the 50s creates a very identifiable type of toning. If you see that on a coin from the 50s it looks "correct", but if you saw the same thing on a coin from the 60s or 70s, then it would be unappealing.
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"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
To my eye these look to be original- I could be wrong
This Long Island resided and toned from being obverse down in one of the outer 4 corners of an original as issued 5 coin cardboard tab holder.
One of the most beautiful buffalo nickels in my collection.
Not only is that gorgeous but it is hammered for a 35-D!
Being able to ascertain originality is something I'm still working on. And with some series I have no business making any judgments. But these 3 coins I dont believe have ever been messed with and have their original skin.
Feel free to correct me, I know there are much better trained eyes here than mine.
I like the questions and I agreed with a lot of the examples shown. I don't agree at all with a few of them.
I think it helps to consider the dates you encompassed and the type of metal to determine if full brilliance is realistic. For 1934 and beyond, almost everything is available in a natural brilliant condition, as this marked a point in collecting where coins started to be saved by the roll. Many were still dipped, but many remain that were not. NOTE: Dipping, as I consider it, should not be include straight Acetone rinsing or soaking to remove organic particulate. Dipping would be chemical, no mater how diluted, which will cause microscopic anomalies in the luster.
Natural skin could also include toning, as silver, nickel and copper are noticeably reactive, and if stored in albums, craft envelopes, paper wrappers or are the end piece on a roll, I would expect "original skin" to mean natural, unharmed luster with natural and sometimes vibrant color. NOTE: Unharmed luster does not mean unmarked. Luster often remains down to EF40 graded coins.
Understanding natural or original luster takes a practiced eye. I have seen plenty of "boinked" coins (dipped, retoned, colored, worked) in straight-grade plastic ... and yes, more than a few with stickers. To me a coin with "original skin" is a coin then where all luster remaining is unharmed (un-boinked, if you will), and whatever color is present can be considered a natural progression from the coins life from the time it left the mint, without practiced (or unpracticed) intervention.
For silver, early 20th Century Classics and Barbers will almost always have some coloring, even if still considered brilliant. Anything else is getting rare. Seated coins with full brilliance would be extremely rare, and as @MasonG so aptly explained, Capped Bust in natural full brilliance would be a Unicorn.
Morgan's have to be the exception here as so many were maintained in bank vaults for nearly a century that by the time they were released, collectors had developed careful preservation techniques and many are well preserved and developed no other toning. However, careful study of the luster can be very revealing regarding whether a coin has been dipped.
Remember too that toning doesn't mean "original", or "original skin", by any measure, and sometimes original is not necessarily attractive.
Terminal is basically black (for silver and copper), extremely dark gray (for nickel), and will almost always impair the luster.
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And these original skin? Almost certainly original, but no guarantees.
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How about this one? Maybe, but the chance she is truly natural is much less certain. This is one that often gets called as "original skin", and I am generally okay with that, but if she is truly original, she was probably pulled from circulation early, very carefully stored in a kraft envelope or cotton holder, or in a covered felt or velvet lined tray, and left undisturbed in a fairly stable environment for many, many years. Eventually she found her way into an album, and then maybe a more modern protective holder, nether probably which were as stable an environment, all of which kept slightly changing her appearance over time.
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But not these. As much as I love them, and I think they are all attractive and worthwhile examples, they are not "original skin" examples, regardless of how some might describe them.
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Original (AU 58 CAC):
Not original (AU50) especially when seen in hand:
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Original skin.
I haven't seen in-hand the Lexington that @AlanSki posted, but this issue is famous for having thick toning on both obverse and reverse when the coins were kept in the souvenir box. They often tone with splotches and a green hue and the toning is thick and likely due to the acid in the wood. I don't know the history of the particular Lexington in this thread, but I would be surprised if it were both un-dipped and spent its life in that box.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
How’s this for “original skin” lol
That's pretty amazing. I'm glad you edited your post because I was wondering about that fish...
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I don't believe anyone knows for sure if a coin is "original." I say that because some of the crustiest, thickest skinned coins - are holed. Of course, a holed coin can't be original, usually the hole comes years after being struck. A time machine would help, but none of us here have the ability to know exactly what has been done to a coin.
That being said, these have thick skins and are original-looking, aesthetics aside - but I like them (lkeigwin photo on 1795) :
edit: since you are looking for XF-MS, the 1802 is PCGS XF40 CAC, 1795 VG10 CAC, 1854 PCGS MS62. Added one more 1803 AU50 CAC.
Original skin is much easier and more applicable to coins that are not toned or minimally toned. Coins like blast white original Morgans, red Indian cents, blasty yellow/orange Liberty gold coins are good examples.
This MS67 1867s seated quarter has original surfaces. 80% white and unchanged in appearance since the first time I saw it in 1975. Jet black toning on the rims. This is not a hoard coin so it being saved in nearly white condition was a fluke. Most of the white to blast white seated coins tend to come from hoards.....stacked or wrapped up in something to keep most of the coins protected.
The reverse of this 1843-0 large O seated quarter in PO-01 appears to be fully original. But there's no way to be sure.
It's the other end of the spectrum with pleasant light grey toning.
The MS67 blast white 1887 Morgan has a tiny crescent of rainbow color along the lower edge. Plucked from an original half bag about 10 years ago. It was the only one out of that group that graded above 66. Has that look of frost on frost.
As far as bright white and original bust half dollars....I ran into one of those in 2009 that I was 90% confident had never been dipped. It had layers of frost on frost and crusty on the top. About 90-95% white. It was a mid 1820's date in a PCGS MS64 holder. If not for some obverse ticks on the bust it would have been a 65. Best luster I've ever seen on a bust half. Peaked high points and zero rub.
I hope we haven’t confused the OP with a few examples that are questionable. It might be best to learn what a cleaned coin looks like (and those coins that were cleaned long ago and retoned).
Starting from that vantage point would be more useful since the definition will vary considerably.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I agree that the term applies to BU and AU coins, here is one where the white center has a frostiness that has not been stripped away by dipping and you can see a luster break on the obverse on the cheek, so I would call this original skin.
For circulated coins, the proper question is whether the coin has been cleaned, as Catbert said, which is often impossible to determine because during the past 200 years coins were cleaned with baking soda, retoned, or darkened with ammonia ,etc
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Not this
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Unfortunately fake coin and faked toning; not really deceptive yet.
The term "original skin" is a concept that can't be known with absolute certainty unless a coin is still in some sort of original, untampered with packaging or has been in the possession of its owner since it was minted. Much like original toning/artificial toning it can be almost impossible to discern in some instances.
Some really great contributions (@TomB, @Roadrunner, among others) to the perennial issue of tarnish on coins. What a great thread. Cheers, RickO
Great coins in here!
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I feel confident this is completely original:
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Original!
"Original skin" is hard to define, and sometimes, hard to decide on some coins. While easy to determine on others. The 1907 half (a beauty!) above is a nice "super original" example.
Now that is great coin!