Seller says wheel mark
AUandAG
Posts: 24,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
Is that what this is? I see that the die was polished as is seen in the field and above Miss Liberty. The "wheel" mark does not go over the start and wouldn't it if it were PMD?
thanks,
bob 
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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some type of pmd. for sure more aggressive than a wipe.
Might it be feeder finger damage?
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My first thought was it is damage from an eraser, but I have not seen the coin in-hand.
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Based on what I can see in the pictures, I would determine that to be PMD. Not sure what caused it, but wheel mark would not be a term I would apply. Others may differ.... Cheers, RickO
I've always thought 'wheel marks' came from counting machines.
I don't think Morgans went through that type of counter.
Morgan dollars were heavily used in the slot machines in Los Vegas and I imagine most made several trips through the counting machines. Wheel mark or not, it's still PMD (post mintage damage) and it will get a details grade at the major grading services.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Do those marks go over the stars and E?
It looks like some kind of heavy brush or serrated device made those marks, but how I do not know. I would think definitely PMD.
JIm
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Why do you ask? Are you thinking that it might not be post-strike damage? Whatever it is, it's not mint-made.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Interesting - how? These little unknown 'treasures'
of numismatics just seem to be unending.
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It's a problem coin. Unless it's priced really cheap, I would pass on it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thanks all, just had not seen anything like it and it didn't look like wheel marks to me. Just confused a bit over his remark.
bob
Needs a coin doctor.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Not a coin I would want. Pass.
Would have thought if it was a counting machine or other wheel mark, it would have effected the stars and even Liberty's face more, although there does appear to be some faint marks there also, and across the face not just up and down. Seems more like a focused brushing vs a counting machine.
I do think it is PMD and someone was trying to smooth out the heavy chatter in the fields. Could have been a small dremel brush.
Kyle M. (the seller) is a fairly straight shooter. I agree it's a wheel mark for whatever it's worth.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Seller is using a relatively less serious problem term for what is very serious damage; they should know better.
I mean, wheel marks run the gamut from minor to severe, like this one. Saying a coin has a wheel mark is still accurate... It's just a gnarly one.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
PMD. How, I don't know.
Not putting the seller down, just trying to understand his description. I would never have thought that those marks are wheel marks. I've never seen wheel marks like this.
bob
I mean, they're some of the most severe wheelmarks I've ever seen for what its worth, but I have seen other Morgans with wheelmarks that are very similar to that.
I believe these marks are caused by the larger counters that spin the coins on a large metal disk. If a coin gets stuck in between the disk and the flaps that guide the coins to the counter, they can get marks like this. I've seen it happen a few times first-hand when I'll accidentally put an Ike through the machines.
I will add that it is probably an 1878-CC right? The GSA was BRUTAL on those, a lot of those were not handled appropriately since it was before competent numismatists started consulting with the GSA on appropriate handling techniques. IIRC many 1878-CC were machine counted which could explain the damage.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
my first thought wasn't as much what caused them but WHY caused them!
i've seen coins like this over the years, as many here have, that simply have no reasonable explanation to have been tampered with, aside from the extensive marketing campains over the decades/centuries that cleaning your coins makes them better. ><
you are right about the die polishing but since there doesn't appear to be any obvious reason to tamper with the coin and unless it happened long ago, it was done on a rather desirable coin 78 series for which appears to be a nice coin. sure it isn't a ms65 or gem but it is what it is and what it was made to do, simply be a coin, not a collectable.
it hasn't been dipped out so much that the subtle frosting is gone, nor the luster and has what appears to be some semi-semi PL properties from the die polishing, which comes with the territory of polished dies and minus the "wheel marks" would make a nice 63, not really cac worthy 63 though. too much frost/luster for a 62 in my book.
so like with too many coins, someone that did it really didn't appreciate the nuance to leave coins alone unless you know what you are doing or perhaps an unhappy spouse? JUST enough damage to the coin to make it sting. lol
My eyes went right to the marks. If it were me I'd probably pass.
The term he used might, in fact, be accurate. And it's not like the problem isn't readily apparent tin the image provided. You should know better than to make an accusation like that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How would we even know the cause unless a grading service says what it is? Or let's assemble a blue ribbon panel of experts on various surface issues to come to something definitive.
Shouldn't wheel marks from a counter be curved?
Why would a grading service know any better than we do? Some folks here are as experienced and knowledgeable, or more so.
It's academic, I suppose, and as far as I'm concerned it makes no difference. It's rather severe PMD and it's therefore not a coin that I'd want to own. I understand the desire to use precise language, but in this case I think it's going to be hard to know for sure. The ways a coin can be damaged are rather numerous.
Depends on the kind of wheel the counting machine uses. Oftentimes they'll have a very slight ellipses to them without actually having much of a curve. You can see these ones bow slightly inwards on each edge.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Yes. But they are largely straight and parallel to the other lines that appear to be in the field only. Wheel marks would be evident on the higher points of the devices.
I’m all for accuracy and getting to the bottom of a good, perplexing mystery - numismatic or otherwise. But I’m perfectly fine with settling on “Uncirculated Details, Obverse Damage”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.