+ vs non+, your thoughts?

Cladiator · September 24, 2022 7:56PM

How is this a 65+...

When this is just a 65? Am I missing something?

DisneyFan · September 24, 2022 8:02PM

Luster

FlyingAl · September 24, 2022 8:42PM

@DisneyFan said:
Luster

This is funny. My exact thought was "luster." Then I scrolled down and... "well I don't need to type that ."

PerryHall · September 25, 2022 1:35AM

The second coin without the + has cleaner surfaces as far as contact marks go and is the one that I'd rather own. I hate bag marks.

MFeld · September 25, 2022 2:06AM

If the grades weren’t disclosed, I believe that almost everyone would say that the non-plus coin was the better of the two. And with all of the marks on the plus-coin, I don’t think the “luster” explanation is a valid excuse for it deserving a higher grade.

jmlanzaf · September 25, 2022 2:22AM

@MFeld said:
If the grades weren’t disclosed, I believe that almost everyone would say that the non-plus coin was the better of the two. And with all of the marks on the plus-coin, I don’t think the “luster” explanation is a valid excuse for it deserving a higher grade.

The strike also appears to be better

MFeld · September 25, 2022 2:41AM

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
If the grades weren’t disclosed, I believe that almost everyone would say that the non-plus coin was the better of the two. And with all of the marks on the plus-coin, I don’t think the “luster” explanation is a valid excuse for it deserving a higher grade.

The strike also appears to be better

If you weren’t aware of the assigned grades, which coin would you grade higher?

pcgscacgold · September 25, 2022 2:45AM

I would take the second coin over the first one. The obverse has too many abrasions in the top photo.

pcgscacgold · September 25, 2022 2:53AM

I thought I recognized those coins from a dealers site. The dealer only has the 65+ grade coin listed for $300 over the 65 coin so probably also thinks the lower grade coin is better for the grade. When those two were first listed I thought about purchasing the 65 and passed quickly on the 65+

PerryHall · September 25, 2022 3:09AM

If both coins were resubmitted raw, the grades could be easily reversed.

ricko · September 25, 2022 3:11AM

I will join the consensus on this one....The surface condition of coin 2 is preferable to coin 1, though 1 seems to have more pronounced luster. Cheers, RickO

Pedzola · September 25, 2022 3:19AM

I also recognize these coins, as I've been looking for one. I passed on both. Too many hits on coin 1, luster doesn't look great on coin 2.

jmlanzaf · September 25, 2022 4:45AM

@MFeld said:
If the grades weren’t disclosed, I believe that almost everyone would say that the non-plus coin was the better of the two. And with all of the marks on the plus-coin, I don’t think the “luster” explanation is a valid excuse for it deserving a higher grade.

The strike also appears to be better> @MFeld said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
If the grades weren’t disclosed, I believe that almost everyone would say that the non-plus coin was the better of the two. And with all of the marks on the plus-coin, I don’t think the “luster” explanation is a valid excuse for it deserving a higher grade.

The strike also appears to be better

If you weren’t aware of the assigned grades, which coin would you grade higher?

Based on the photos, probably the second, although I think it's close. But the luster is so bad in the second photo it barely looks UNC. I also think there are more marks than are apparent due to either the subdued luster or bad photo.

MFeld · September 25, 2022 4:58AM

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
If the grades weren’t disclosed, I believe that almost everyone would say that the non-plus coin was the better of the two. And with all of the marks on the plus-coin, I don’t think the “luster” explanation is a valid excuse for it deserving a higher grade.

The strike also appears to be better> @MFeld said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
If the grades weren’t disclosed, I believe that almost everyone would say that the non-plus coin was the better of the two. And with all of the marks on the plus-coin, I don’t think the “luster” explanation is a valid excuse for it deserving a higher grade.

The strike also appears to be better

If you weren’t aware of the assigned grades, which coin would you grade higher?

Based on the photos, probably the second, although I think it's close. But the luster is so bad in the second photo it barely looks UNC. I also think there are more marks than are apparent due to either the subdued luster or bad photo.

Fine, forget about the second coin. How do you grade the first one, with its booming luster and magnificent strike?

jmlanzaf · September 25, 2022 5:02AM

@MFeld said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
If the grades weren’t disclosed, I believe that almost everyone would say that the non-plus coin was the better of the two. And with all of the marks on the plus-coin, I don’t think the “luster” explanation is a valid excuse for it deserving a higher grade.

The strike also appears to be better> @MFeld said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
If the grades weren’t disclosed, I believe that almost everyone would say that the non-plus coin was the better of the two. And with all of the marks on the plus-coin, I don’t think the “luster” explanation is a valid excuse for it deserving a higher grade.

The strike also appears to be better

If you weren’t aware of the assigned grades, which coin would you grade higher?

Based on the photos, probably the second, although I think it's close. But the luster is so bad in the second photo it barely looks UNC. I also think there are more marks than are apparent due to either the subdued luster or bad photo.

Fine, forget about the second coin. How do you grade the first one, with its booming luster and magnificent strike?

Lol. I'd call it 64. But I'm always more conservative than the grading services. I can see it as a 65 these days.

Pedzola · September 25, 2022 5:48AM

Agree I'd say 64+.

abdelmeg1 · September 25, 2022 6:20AM

@MFeld said:
If the grades weren’t disclosed, I believe that almost everyone would say that the non-plus coin was the better of the two. And with all of the marks on the plus-coin, I don’t think the “luster” explanation is a valid excuse for it deserving a higher grade.

Mark, the grades being what they are, in an auction, if you have to guess, which coin will bring in more $$$ ?

MFeld · September 25, 2022 6:27AM

@abdelmeg1 said:

@MFeld said:
If the grades weren’t disclosed, I believe that almost everyone would say that the non-plus coin was the better of the two. And with all of the marks on the plus-coin, I don’t think the “luster” explanation is a valid excuse for it deserving a higher grade.

Mark, the grades being what they are, in an auction, if you have to guess, which coin will bring in more $$$ ?

My guess is that the plus coin would bring more, as some buyers focus more on labels than coins.

ms71 · September 25, 2022 6:52AM

Hard to judge the comparison from these photos, the lighting is significantly different. The lighting on the 65+ is much "harsher". It accentuates the nicks etc., as well as the luster. The lighting on the 65 is much softer. On the 65, note the horizontal mark to the left of the middle of Liberty's nose. Also the long mark curling from the point of her neck up past star #2. I suspect that these, and the chatter to the right of her lower curls, would show up much like the chatter on the 65+ if the lighting were the same.

MFeld · September 25, 2022 7:06AM

@ms71 said:
Hard to judge the comparison from these photos, the lighting is significantly different. The lighting on the 64+ gives a much harsher look, accentuating the nicks etc. The lighting on the 64 is much softer. On the 64, note the horizontal mark to the left of the middle of Liberty's nose. Also the long mark curling from the point of her neck up past star #2. I suspect that the chatter to the right of her lower curls would also show up much like that on the 64+ if the lighting were the same.

The grades are 65+ and 65 (not 64+ and 64).

ms71 · September 25, 2022 7:16AM

@MFeld said:

@ms71 said:
Hard to judge the comparison from these photos, the lighting is significantly different. The lighting on the 64+ gives a much harsher look, accentuating the nicks etc. The lighting on the 64 is much softer. On the 64, note the horizontal mark to the left of the middle of Liberty's nose. Also the long mark curling from the point of her neck up past star #2. I suspect that the chatter to the right of her lower curls would also show up much like that on the 64+ if the lighting were the same.

The grades are 65+ and 65 (not 64+ and 64).

Thanks, fixed.

Cladiator · September 25, 2022 8:40AM

Enlightening replies, thanks all. The search for a PQ 65 $20 that won't mortgage the house continues....

FlyingAl · September 25, 2022 9:12AM

Personally, I think the angle of the second coin's pictures hide quite a few marks. Granted, it does have fewer, but the luster is nonexistent compared to the first coin. One thing that I've seen in higher graded PCGS coins (once you get up to the gem level) is that luster takes more prevalence to marks or surface condition. It's like color - the more attractive the higher the coin can go even if it has marks that would hold it back if it was blast white. The weaker strike doesn't help coin #2, but I don't think that's the difference in grade.

Not saying this is wrong, but it is something that I've noticed. Each grading service has its own nuances, and things that would lead to a different grade at another service.

Walkerfan · September 25, 2022 10:43AM

The non-plus coin looks to have better surfaces, IMHO.

The difference in luster appears to be insignificant.

asheland · September 25, 2022 10:50AM

@Cladiator said:
Enlightening replies, thanks all. The search for a PQ 65 $20 that won't mortgage the house continues....

That’s what I’ve been wanting (65) but I settled for the OGH 64 I found Friday night. It’s close enough and like half the price.

Heck, I can always upgrade later if the perfect 65 comes along.

abdelmeg1 · September 27, 2022 10:12AM

@Cladiator said:
How is this a 65+...

When this is just a 65? Am I missing something?

How about this for an answer: 65+ the grader was in a good mood. The 65: she is tough and in a bad mood.

Elcontador · September 27, 2022 3:25PM

@Cladiator said:
How is this a 65+...

When this is just a 65? Am I missing something?

Grading is an opinion - an expert opinion, but an opinion nevertheless - and it's an important part of the hobby.

Many years ago, I first noticed things like this. I'd line a dealer's MS 64 with Motto Seated Half next to one in an MS 65 holder, and the former was a nicer coin. Rinse and repeat. It happens. From what I've seen, not too frequently, but if you look at enough coins, you'll see it.

rte592 · September 27, 2022 3:34PM

Same person grading?
Maybe it was early in the morning and eyes weren't clear yet.
I see more shiny on the+ sunny day vs overcast day and a microscope with 100 watt vs a 60 watt bulb difference.

MFeld · September 27, 2022 3:41PM

@rte592 said:
Same person grading?
Maybe it was early in the morning and eyes weren't clear yet.
I see more shiny on the+ sunny day vs overcast day and a microscope with 100 watt vs a 60 watt bulb difference.

Graders likely work under the same lighting conditions each day and all times of day, regardless of the weather outside. And to be clear, they do so indoors.😉

privatecoin · September 27, 2022 3:46PM

@abdelmeg1 said:

@Cladiator said:
How is this a 65+...

When this is just a 65? Am I missing something?

How about this for an answer: 65+ the grader was in a good mood. The 65: she is tough and in a bad mood.

Or one before coffee and the other after.

Broadstruck · September 27, 2022 3:53PM

@Pedzola said:
I also recognize these coins, as I've been looking for one. I passed on both. Too many hits on coin 1, luster doesn't look great on coin 2.

Second coin is also weakly struck on the reverse centers as a lot of those details are mushy.

JRGeyer · September 27, 2022 4:37PM

I would like to see both coins in hand. The top coin probably has considerably better eye appeal, and the strike is hammered. The coin looks almost PL.

MFeld · September 27, 2022 5:23PM

@abdelmeg1 said:

@MFeld said:

@rte592 said:
Same person grading?
Maybe it was early in the morning and eyes weren't clear yet.
I see more shiny on the+ sunny day vs overcast day and a microscope with 100 watt vs a 60 watt bulb difference.

Graders likely work under the same lighting conditions each day and all times of day, regardless of the weather outside. And to be clear, they do so indoors.😉

Yes, BUT, there is the "grader" factor too. From my limited personal experience from my PCGS submissions (and re-submissions), there is at least ONE very difficult grader at PCGS. And YES, grading is subjective and all that, BUT , when you submit 12 high end coins and you get 0 upgrades (which means that many of those 12 coins were graded down, but were saved by the PCGS guarantee), that's still possible ; BUT then when you re-submit them again and 5 of them upgrade, then there is an important personal variation. Is it mood, criteria, or just something else ? And, BTW, this happened to me both for regrades and for reconsideration. Another observation, the turnaround time of that difficult grader (s), is very fast (only few days in grading stage). When the coins spend less than 1 week in the grading stage, I almost always get 0 upgrades. May be @MFeld can enlighten us on the "grader" factor at PCGS.

It sounds as if you might be making a number of assumptions.
For example, how do you know that “many of those 12 coins were graded down , but were saved by the PCGS guarantee”?
How do you know now much, if any, influence that one particular grader had on the grades of your coins?
How do you know that the turnaround time is faster or slower because of one grader?
How do you know that a particular grader was even grading each of the times you failed to receive upgrades (or that he wasn’t grading when you got upgrades)?

abdelmeg1 · September 27, 2022 5:43PM

@MFeld said:

@abdelmeg1 said:

@MFeld said:

@rte592 said:
Same person grading?
Maybe it was early in the morning and eyes weren't clear yet.
I see more shiny on the+ sunny day vs overcast day and a microscope with 100 watt vs a 60 watt bulb difference.

Graders likely work under the same lighting conditions each day and all times of day, regardless of the weather outside. And to be clear, they do so indoors.😉

Yes, BUT, there is the "grader" factor too. From my limited personal experience from my PCGS submissions (and re-submissions), there is at least ONE very difficult grader at PCGS. And YES, grading is subjective and all that, BUT , when you submit 12 high end coins and you get 0 upgrades (which means that many of those 12 coins were graded down, but were saved by the PCGS guarantee), that's still possible ; BUT then when you re-submit them again and 5 of them upgrade, then there is an important personal variation. Is it mood, criteria, or just something else ? And, BTW, this happened to me both for regrades and for reconsideration. Another observation, the turnaround time of that difficult grader (s), is very fast (only few days in grading stage). When the coins spend less than 1 week in the grading stage, I almost always get 0 upgrades. May be @MFeld can enlighten us on the "grader" factor at PCGS.

How do you know that “many of those 12 coins were graded down , but were saved by the PCGS guarantee”? How do you know now much, if any, influence that one particular grader had on the grades of your coins? How do you know that the turnaround time is faster or slower because of one grader? How do you know that a particular grader was even grading each of the times you failed to receive upgrades (or that he wasn’t grading when you got upgrades)?

Of course, I do NOT know for sure, and there is NO way for me to know for sure. And, I should not have said "many of the 12" but "some or few" instead. Without going into statistical odds details (which are never 100% correct), may be I am just 100% wrong. So, if understand correctly, you do not believe in the "tough grader factor" ? That's why I asked for enlightenment. One last question, are the graders at any TPG , 100% blinded to the original grades with regrades ?? (of course are not with reconsideration). Always appreciate your knowledge and expertise. Cheers.

MFeld · September 27, 2022 5:54PM

@abdelmeg1 said:

@MFeld said:

@abdelmeg1 said:

@MFeld said:

@rte592 said:
Same person grading?
Maybe it was early in the morning and eyes weren't clear yet.
I see more shiny on the+ sunny day vs overcast day and a microscope with 100 watt vs a 60 watt bulb difference.

Graders likely work under the same lighting conditions each day and all times of day, regardless of the weather outside. And to be clear, they do so indoors.😉

Yes, BUT, there is the "grader" factor too. From my limited personal experience from my PCGS submissions (and re-submissions), there is at least ONE very difficult grader at PCGS. And YES, grading is subjective and all that, BUT , when you submit 12 high end coins and you get 0 upgrades (which means that many of those 12 coins were graded down, but were saved by the PCGS guarantee), that's still possible ; BUT then when you re-submit them again and 5 of them upgrade, then there is an important personal variation. Is it mood, criteria, or just something else ? And, BTW, this happened to me both for regrades and for reconsideration. Another observation, the turnaround time of that difficult grader (s), is very fast (only few days in grading stage). When the coins spend less than 1 week in the grading stage, I almost always get 0 upgrades. May be @MFeld can enlighten us on the "grader" factor at PCGS.

How do you know that “many of those 12 coins were graded down , but were saved by the PCGS guarantee”? How do you know now much, if any, influence that one particular grader had on the grades of your coins? How do you know that the turnaround time is faster or slower because of one grader? How do you know that a particular grader was even grading each of the times you failed to receive upgrades (or that he wasn’t grading when you got upgrades)?

Of course, I do NOT know for sure, and there is NO way for me to know for sure. And, I should not have said "many of the 12" but "some or few" instead. Without going into statistical odds details (which are never 100% correct), may be I am just 100% wrong. So, if understand correctly, you do not believe in the "tough grader factor" ? That's why I asked for enlightenment. One last question, are the graders at any TPG , 100% blinded to the original grades with regrades ?? (of course are not with reconsideration). Always appreciate your knowledge and expertise. Cheers.

I never graded at PCGS and it’s been a very long time since I graded at NGC, so I can’t answer your last question.

As to your “tough grader factor” question, I believe that some graders tend to be somewhat stricter or looser than others. But grading is a team effort and I wouldn’t assume that a particular grader has been responsible for your disappointing results.

ChrisH821 · September 27, 2022 5:57PM

The + looks like it might be semi-PL

BryceM · September 27, 2022 7:19PM

If the coins were photographed under identical conditions, I prefer coin #1 by a significant margin. Color and apparent luster are much better. Coin #1 has "lively" fields while coin #2 is a bit more uniform and subdued. However, assuming that lighting and photographic technique was precisely identical is a stretch.

+ vs non+, your thoughts?

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