Problem free coins
Flykaster
Posts: 6 ✭
I collected coins for many years "years ago" Just got back into collecting. Now I have a bit of $ am working on a US ( no gold ) type set. I have notice at auction and other places many coins selling with "details" attached i.e. environmental damage, repaired, altered surfaces. The term cleaned, whizzed, burnished, these are old terms I understand, back in the 60s 70s i would pass on these considered uncollectable. Seems expectations have changed. I don't understand the other terms and how they affect a particular coins collectability. Now that I am type colleting I realize all of the early types ( 1792-1805) are out of my budget unless they are "problem coins" . I have seen some really nice pieces with EF45 AU 55 but "not gradable" PGCS or "details" NGC sell at auction for prices I can afford. When looking at scarce or pieces in the R3 R4 range, are problem coins worth the investment? I'm looking at a 1795 flowing hair dollar, PGCS "repaired" EF 40 details very nice eye appeal, some toning with hints of luster ? does the "repaired" make the coin unfit for a type set
Flykaster in Montana
Comments
Just like every butt has a seat every coin has a home and no coin is truly unfit for a collection unless you say it is. Having said that buying problem coins can be a very slippery slope. Some dealers (and collectors) are very happy to sell those coins but are reluctant to buy them when you sell someday down the road.
Its tempting to buy such coins to get a "deal", you may get a deal or you may get a pig in a poke instead.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Every coin has, "A Problem."....... Roll with it.....
I’d buy coins because I like them and want to collect them, not as an investment.
Each type of problem noted in details grades (such as “cleaning”, “damage”, “repaired”, “scratched” etc.) can be a matter of degree. And there’s usually no easily ascertainable fair market value for such coins.
Repaired coins, in particular, can be especially treacherous, as there are different types of repairs and some are much more extreme and detrimental to a coin’s value, than others.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It depends on the problem for me. I absolutely stay away from coins that were altered with an attempt to deceive such as whizzing or tooling.
My 2 cents: If you're forced to buy 'problem' coins based on your collecting interests, I'd advise you to change your interests. Problem coins will be more difficult to sell down the road. Problems don't go away, and sometimes they get worse.
On the other hand, if you don't care about re-sale, collect whatever you want.
With my personal budget, I'm priced out of a lot of areas ... but I can live with that. I just focus on ideas I can affordably collect.
Good luck,
Dave
You'd be better off just buying a lower graded coin, I have never bought a details coin and I never will, and I've been collecting for over 60 years!
JMO
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Thanks for the comments, seems expectations have not changed that much after all
I think it depends on the problem. I have cracked out a couple of lightly cleaned or "scratched" that I think would have a decent shot of getting back in a problem free holder. They currently sit in a few of my albums and look just fine. Enjoy them for what they are.
I bought this on the cheap in a genuine holder.
It also wasn’t labeled as the scarcer lettered edge variety.
I thought some of my raw coins were problem free; the TPGs apparently felt otherwise!
That's just it, I don't buy raw coins since TPG started.......
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
It's your set, you get to decide what's fit and what's not. If you're investing, details coins can be tough to sell when you go to cash out. If you're collecting, you can pretty much do whatever you'd like.
I have never bought a coin that would not straight grade. But it’s up to you. Don’t expect a problem coin to sell without consequences.
Noone above has welcomed you to the forum so I will do so! WECOME!
As for my collection, I avoid details graded coins. I like to think that the coins I choose to buy are of a quality that others will want them readily when I choose to sell them because they have attractive attributes that includes strong eye appeal. Naturally, there is a usually a price to pay up front for that privilege.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Well, he did first post back in March.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Every coin that has a problem becomes your problem once you own it.
Stay away.
@Flykaster ... Welcome aboard. Some excellent advice above. It is your collection, so you decide on the coins you acquire. Listen to the experts, of course. Then make your decision - your money, your collection, your plans. Cheers, RickO
If a certified coin is in a "details" holder, I look no further. Hard pass,
The trouble with problem coins is that the problem will always hold them back. If the price goes up generally for a specific issue, it's much easier to get that higher price if the coin has a straight grade. The problem coin probably will command a higher price, but it's more of a negotiable point.
Having said that, there are some coins which will not always “have the problem.” The coins don’t get better, of course, but another time through the grading mill can produce a different result.
I have not submitted anything, other than a couple of pieces of Confederate paper money, in a long time. Years ago (20+), I sent an 1858 Flying Eagle Cent to PCGS which came back in a body bag for "questionable color," which was the same thing as “details” is today. I sent the same coin to NGC, and it received an MS-64 grade, which it deserved in my opinion.
During the same period, I sent an 1839-O half dollar to NGC. It had been dipped, but not cleaned. They sent it back to me in a body bag for “cleaned.” I sent the same coin to PCGS and got an AU-58.
It takes some expertise to play this game, but contrary to what you might think, grades, not even “details” grades are necessarily carved in stone.
I would note many coins in "clean" holders also can have problems to some degree. Collect what you like and don't worry about resale. Just budget what you can afford. If you buy a details coin at a large auction like Heritage etc. you will usually pay a reasonable market price. I would not buy a details coin anywhere else unless you have a very knowledgeable advisor to guide you.
Keep in mind there are a number of dealers out there that buy detailed coins, crack them, and play doctor to get them in a graded slab.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Great post, Bill.
There are problems like holes, gouges, graffiti, etc that are universally agreed upon. These should certainly be avoided. Others are more subtle and some of us that collect early coinage may be willing to compromise in order to obtain some of the tougher issues. Especially if there’s a chance on a different day it would straight grade.
At Summer FUN I was chatting and sharing war stories with several EAC dealers. One told us of a red Indian cent he bought from another dealer in a cleaned/ genuine holder at a deep discount. It later graded 66 Red, was purchased by Rick Snow, and awarded an eagle 🦅 eye sticker. So the same coin went from something the purists would pooh pooh to something they would be proud to own.
Me - I don’t buy problem coins nor have a feel for that market segment. I want smooth operation on the sell side plus I have certain standards where put my money. Every slab I buy is straight graded, cherrypicked for quality.
I can’t tell you what to buy or collect it’s your call and your money.
I did have a problem coin dealer setup next to me once and he did good sales. There are people who buy this material.
@MFeld's point about the reason for the details grade is critical. In particular, tooling is scary.
However, for coins that don't quite make it due to a relatively light cleaning, there are some nice coins out there, and resale may not be a problem.
The OP mentioned flowing hair dollars. If you look at XF40 dollars from the Heritage archives over the two years or so, you find the average prices approximately as follows:
Slabbed as genuine/cleaned: $ 6500 with standard deviation 25 %
Problem free: $ 12,600 with standard deviation 35 %.
It's a relatively small sample, and the averages and deviations may be distorted by varieties, but I think you can conclude as follows: for recent sales, cleaned coins are about half the price of problem free coins, but the price is not any harder to determine. There seems to be a ready market and the prices are reasonably predictable.
Generally, it is much better to have a "problem free" (gradeable) coin than one with problems. Also, since a lot of collecting these days is done over the internet, a cleaned or otherwise problem coin can look a lot worse in hand, as heavy hairlines can be hidden in auction pictures. There are some exceptions, EAC members, even at the highest level, have some early copper coins with varying degrees of issues that will not make it into a graded slab.
I thought coins were like Butts, everyone here's got one!! 😂 🤣
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Totally agree. 👍
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@Dave99B said:
"My 2 cents: If you're forced to buy 'problem' coins based on your collecting interests, I'd advise you to change your interests. Problem coins will be more difficult to sell down the road. Problems don't go away, and sometimes they get worse.
On the other hand, if you don't care about re-sale, collect whatever you want.
With my personal budget, I'm priced out of a lot of areas ... but I can live with that. I just focus on ideas I can affordably collect.
Good luck,
Dave"
Continuing on my slightly contrarian theme ... I think that's a little too restrictive. As my numbers above suggest, there is a liquid market for some problem coins.
In my US type set, I have exactly one "problem":
They only made 300; it is certified genuine (and "original"); it does have significant problems, but it's a cool coin and I could almost certainly sell it for more than I paid (even adjusted for inflation!).
I am glad you asked this question. I have been studying the details coin market for about a year now. I have to say that the old conventional wisdom does not seem to apply to many modern collectors.
Old school collectors, like me, were taught to avoid problem coins at all costs. The only exceptions to this rule were if you were some type of researcher who needed the coin for your research project. Or, you were a collector who had exhausted every avenue and were now settling for a damaged coin as a last resort because the coin is so rare.
Ten years ago I saw a number of details coin come onto the market and just languish there.
Month in and month out you would see the same coins on coin sites and fixed dealer price lists. I thought of them as orphan coins.
Today there are hundreds if not thousands of coins in detail holders being bought and sold.
That is an awful lot of researchers and people just settling. I think there is a new breed of collector out there. They seem to be willing to pay significant amounts for detail coins. I have seen several cases where they have actually met and surpassed current retail reference guides. There also seem to be some fantastic buying opportunities where coins sell for very attractive prices.
Having said that I must admit that thus far I have not been able to cross that line and actually
pony up serious money for a details coin. Those other collectors who are buying detail coins probably don't care what a dinosaur such as I think. As far as I can tell they also don't seem to participate in the coin forums I frequent. I would love to know what they are thinking and will be curious to see how coin collecting continues to change.
The rising hobby tide is lifting all boats.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Keep in mind, that prior to the start of the major grading companies, many collectors bought problem-coins for problem-free prices and were quite happy with their purchases. It’s just that they were unaware of the problems.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I see the same "depends on your motives for collecting" . Since I asked this question I have received many opinions. Thanks to all you collectors, been helpful for getting back seriously collecting.
I’ve never intentionally bought a “problem” coin but I have bought two salvage titles vehicles. I had a pretty good idea of what I was getting into, knew the market for them (buy and sell) and felt they met my needs. They’ve been better than many other clean title cars I’ve had.
I suppose a problem coin could present itself on the same manner and I’d hopefully be just as happy with it.
Just as with the cars, there are a ton of factors to take in to account. Also, my life dictates I have reliable transportation and as much as I pretend, coins are not in that same category.