@82FootballWaxMemorys said: 1989 Score Football:
Junk WAX era + Huge Print Quantities + Huge Census Pops + Huge amounts still unopened = Junk Wax
BTW same goes for 1989 UD Baseball.
as @brad31 stated "Junk wax refers to print run - not quality of the cards."
Problem here is there's no consideration of demand. 4000+ PSA 10 89 UD Griffeys and 2000+ 89 Score Sanders? Probably 200K collectors would target these as a core element of their pc.
As far as BBCE and Steve go, any true unopened collector will understand the enormous value they provide to this niche of the hobby. True class acts that will go out of their way to ensure high quality service to their customers. I guarantee Steve would have done just that if the op had reached out to him... he takes any tampering or forgery of his wrap very seriously, as any business owner should.
I agree with your take on BBCE completely.
However, I think you overstate the demand for 10s of these cards. I have both raw - one pack pulled and one bought in about 1991 and have no need for a graded copy. Will never pay a fee to grade mine. Stats say they are most likely an 8-10 and those are fine for me. Supply and demand say they are worth what they sell for and I will not argue with the value. However, any big swing in value will unearth more 10s and scores of 9s. I think at a certain price point many collectors simply buy them in a 9.
If someone posted blind the 5 newest listings of 1989 UD Griffey in a 9 and of a 10 from EBay, blanked out the grades - I doubt anyone would go 10 for 10. The difference is very minor. Do the same for a card from the 70s if you can find 5 10s and I think several would get it right. More so each decade back. We could all stack the deck with the best 9s or worst 9s and best 10s or worst 10s - but a random sample I truly think people would not be able to pick them out because 9s are so beautiful. Some years I do easily see the difference - early 80s topps, 86 Topps BB, 1985 Topps Football. 1989 Upper Deck is not one of them.
Those that collect high grade 80s cards - I would enjoy looking at your collection - just like I do anyones. You have incredibly beautiful cards of the greatest players of the era - and undoubtedly better than mine. You had a respected grader in the hobby help you curate best copies. You are and should be proud of your collection - but we all appreciate our own niche of the hobby more than other areas. The 1983 quest for pulled set of 10s is one of my favorite threads on here all-time! I overstate the demand of PSA 8s of 1960s low level baseball hall of Famers a great deal!
@brad31 said:
There have been just short of 25k Barry Sanders rookies graded of which 21.5K are PSA 8 or above. Figure any raw card is pretty much an 8-10 and there are tons out there. Barry has 13K pro set and 27K Topps Traded graded. All junk wax level pops. Jerry Rice has 27K also junk wax.
Compare that to 1978 Tony Dorset 4K, 1977 Largent 3.5K, 1976 Payton 10,931 (of which 3.6K are PSA8 and above).
Venture to guess a higher percentage of Payton’s are graded than any Sanders or Rice card.
A card can be iconic and still not valuable. Junk wax refers to print run - not quality of the cards.
Junk WAX era + Huge Print Quantities + Huge Census Pops + Huge amounts still unopened = Junk Wax
BTW same goes for 1989 UD Baseball.
as @brad31 stated "Junk wax refers to print run - not quality of the cards."
The 1989 Score FB "key" cards are some of the all-time top census populations for pre "Junk Slab Era" cards. Yes we are in the Junk Slab Era. Most current players in these slabs will sadly get injured or regress to normal varying levels of average careers or be good but fall short of great. Then those slabs will be dirt cheap to staggering quantities with the most minimal demand. Some players will become HOF's or Major HOF's of course, but as with the past 75 years or so of Sports Cards they will be the exceptions.
For those that feel 1989 Score is not Junk wax era I am curious to know you reasons. I've stated mine. Please do note existence of or lack of demand is not an determiner of Junk Wax Era product.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@craig44 said:
honest question. when Steve retires, and I have to think he must be in his 50s now, who will take up the mantle?
so much of the unopened market is predicated on one mans opinion, what happens when that man isnt actively in the hobby any longer?
Craig,
I have thought about this question for several years and I believe you are the first to bring this up in the forums. This is a great question/concern. My initial thought is many of the 1950's-1980 products have already been authenticated by Steve. Yes, there are some items out there that still have not been reviewed by BBCE. However, most all unopened in the hands of collectors and dealers have valued Steve's opinion to have it looked at. I can't imagine a knowledgeable collector that is sitting on a 1971 Topps baseball box that has not used his service. I am sure Aunt Cathy from Little Rock might have a box of this in her closet which has not been wrapped, but that is only because she is not aware of BBCE or the value. But going back to your question, there are many boxes out there from 1981 Topps and newer that are sitting unwrapped/unverified. My guess is that someone in the industry like OPC Tom or Kurt? from Iowa will be the new authenticator. Great question!
Shane
Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
@craig44 said:
honest question. when Steve retires, and I have to think he must be in his 50s now, who will take up the mantle?
so much of the unopened market is predicated on one mans opinion, what happens when that man isnt actively in the hobby any longer?
I would think he would train other people when that times come. I'm sure he documents his process. There is too much value sitting there for someone not to continue the process.
If it were this easy to just train, PSA would have forced Steve to share his process years ago. It appears that even PSA is begging Steve not to retire. They will soon stop grading packs--period.
@craig44 said:
honest question. when Steve retires, and I have to think he must be in his 50s now, who will take up the mantle?
so much of the unopened market is predicated on one mans opinion, what happens when that man isnt actively in the hobby any longer?
20 years ago Steve was just ramping up and that experience of looking at all those packs is what created the expertise. I would have to think between the last 10 years and next 15-20 there is an apprentice gaining the same experience to take the helm.
Before Steve Mark Murphy was the go to. Murphy had a fire and then became a surfer(not sure if this is true but why else move to San diego ) and Steve's star grew exponentially once that happened.
@craig44 said:
honest question. when Steve retires, and I have to think he must be in his 50s now, who will take up the mantle?
so much of the unopened market is predicated on one mans opinion, what happens when that man isnt actively in the hobby any longer?
Craig,
I have thought about this question for several years and I believe you are the first to bring this up in the forums. This is a great question/concern. My initial thought is many of the 1950's-1980 products have already been authenticated by Steve. Yes, there are some items out there that still have not been reviewed by BBCE. However, most all unopened in the hands of collectors and dealers have valued Steve's opinion to have it looked at. I can't imagine a knowledgeable collector that is sitting on a 1971 Topps baseball box that has not used his service. I am sure Aunt Cathy from Little Rock might have a box of this in her closet which has not been wrapped, but that is only because she is not aware of BBCE or the value. But going back to your question, there are many boxes out there from 1981 Topps and newer that are sitting unwrapped/unverified. My guess is that someone in the industry like OPC Tom or Kurt? from Iowa will be the new authenticator. Great question!
Shane
I don't foresee either Kurt or Tom in that role as they have their own businesses to run but there is a limited number of vintage unopened collectors with the knowledge and experience to step in for Steve should that day arrive, which hopefully won't be anytime soon.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
My recollection from Steve (either in public forum or direct) is that he is training staff (who and how many I don’t know) to assume responsibility at some point.
Others here know the BBCE far better than me. But that, to me, seems like the most plausible and optimal option for us unopened guys.
John
Conundrum - Loving my unopened baseball card collection....but really like ripping too
I know at one time here I mentioned that Reed could take up the mantle as he was trusted by steve as a lead buyer. He did reply to the comment. I cant remember verbatim, but the gist was that he considered Steve much more of an expert than he. It is possible he was being humble, but that was the paraphrase.
I personally had always considered Reed to be a top expert in the field for sure.
@craig44 said:
I know at one time here I mentioned that Reed could take up the mantle as he was trusted by steve as a lead buyer. He did reply to the comment. I cant remember verbatim, but the gist was that he considered Steve much more of an expert than he. It is possible he was being humble, but that was the paraphrase.
I personally had always considered Reed to be a top expert in the field for sure.
Reed is no longer with BBCE, correct? I realize it doesn't mean he can't go back, or authenticate on his own. I've also always been a huge fan of Reed.
@handyman said:
Steve is still here though. Aren’t Steve and reed like the same age if it matters?
I believe so. Steve is only in his early 50s, people talk about him like he's 75, lol.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@Gansetttime said:
I don't get the feeling Reed has any interest. He enjoys the thrill of the hunt.
He has stated that on multiple occasions in the past, as well,
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
We are actually lucky that there are several on this board who have extremely high levels of expertise on this board when it comes to unopened product especially as it relates to 70’s product.
I have the same amount of confidence in anything from Tim(Grote), Mike (CPA Mike), and a few others when it comes to buying unopened and trusting it. Their knowledge regarding if something is good, players are in the correct cells from the correct A or B sheet… is something we are very fortunate to have in the hobby. BBCE provides a great service and Steve has always been great to deal with, and hopefully he sticks around for another 20-30 years - it it tough being a one man show for sure time wise. RVP also does a very good job knowing unopened and is gaining a large following as well.
GI Joe says sometimes the only way to win is not to play. And that is half the battle. Or something like that. It was definitely GI Joe.
Being less cryptic, I'd say it highly surprising that the GI Joe/Pokemon box multi-million dollar BBCE debacle has not come up in this discussion. That's not exactly a skeleton that can just be stuffed in a closet and goes away forever if no one ever talks about it again.
@DM23HOF said:
GI Joe says sometimes the only way to win is not to play. And that is half the battle. Or something like that. It was definitely GI Joe.
Being less cryptic, I'd say it highly surprising that the GI Joe/Pokemon box multi-million dollar BBCE debacle has not come up in this discussion. That's not exactly a skeleton that can just be stuffed in a closet and goes away forever if no one ever talks about it again.
It has been discussed at length, just not in this thread. I think it is pretty clear Steve stepped out of his lane when "authenticating" this case and most likely will not do it again.
@DM23HOF said:
GI Joe says sometimes the only way to win is not to play. And that is half the battle. Or something like that. It was definitely GI Joe.
Being less cryptic, I'd say it highly surprising that the GI Joe/Pokemon box multi-million dollar BBCE debacle has not come up in this discussion. That's not exactly a skeleton that can just be stuffed in a closet and goes away forever if no one ever talks about it again.
It has been discussed at length, just not in this thread. I think it is pretty clear Steve stepped out of his lane when "authenticating" this case and most likely will not do it again.
I find it a little amusing when people ask someone more knowledgeable for their opinion, be it BBCE or PSA or whoever, and then get all bent out of shape when they are not happy with the results.
Everyone should be aware that there are scammers out there and some are very good at what they do.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@ndleo said:
I read this in a couple of posts and I want to make sure I understand correctly,
Are some people saying that buying a BBCE wrapped product from a third party is an unacceptable risk vs buying it from Steve? It some ways that defeats the purpose of the wrap. Even if there is a "risk" from buying BBCE boxes from a third party, is it really that great that we should fear a tampered box?
I am very familiar with that seller. He is a straight shooter. I don't see him tampering with sets to get a PSA 8 quality Sanders.
correct. I dont think anyone here is saying Steve is being dishonest. but the wrap is not enough in my opinion to warrant high prices because it is so easily defeated by scammers. Steve himself said the reason the wrap is "safe" is because it is like a fingerprint and unable to be reapplied in exactly the same position. I would beg to differ.
That opinion is definitely not shared among unopened collectors if auction prices are any indication.
If anyone here is worried about their boxes or shares the above opinion, I am paying 50 cents on the dollar for any vintage BBCE wrapped boxes
Comments
I agree with your take on BBCE completely.
However, I think you overstate the demand for 10s of these cards. I have both raw - one pack pulled and one bought in about 1991 and have no need for a graded copy. Will never pay a fee to grade mine. Stats say they are most likely an 8-10 and those are fine for me. Supply and demand say they are worth what they sell for and I will not argue with the value. However, any big swing in value will unearth more 10s and scores of 9s. I think at a certain price point many collectors simply buy them in a 9.
If someone posted blind the 5 newest listings of 1989 UD Griffey in a 9 and of a 10 from EBay, blanked out the grades - I doubt anyone would go 10 for 10. The difference is very minor. Do the same for a card from the 70s if you can find 5 10s and I think several would get it right. More so each decade back. We could all stack the deck with the best 9s or worst 9s and best 10s or worst 10s - but a random sample I truly think people would not be able to pick them out because 9s are so beautiful. Some years I do easily see the difference - early 80s topps, 86 Topps BB, 1985 Topps Football. 1989 Upper Deck is not one of them.
Those that collect high grade 80s cards - I would enjoy looking at your collection - just like I do anyones. You have incredibly beautiful cards of the greatest players of the era - and undoubtedly better than mine. You had a respected grader in the hobby help you curate best copies. You are and should be proud of your collection - but we all appreciate our own niche of the hobby more than other areas. The 1983 quest for pulled set of 10s is one of my favorite threads on here all-time! I overstate the demand of PSA 8s of 1960s low level baseball hall of Famers a great deal!
The 1989 Score FB "key" cards are some of the all-time top census populations for pre "Junk Slab Era" cards. Yes we are in the Junk Slab Era. Most current players in these slabs will sadly get injured or regress to normal varying levels of average careers or be good but fall short of great. Then those slabs will be dirt cheap to staggering quantities with the most minimal demand. Some players will become HOF's or Major HOF's of course, but as with the past 75 years or so of Sports Cards they will be the exceptions.
For those that feel 1989 Score is not Junk wax era I am curious to know you reasons. I've stated mine. Please do note existence of or lack of demand is not an determiner of Junk Wax Era product.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Brad, Well written.
Craig,
I have thought about this question for several years and I believe you are the first to bring this up in the forums. This is a great question/concern. My initial thought is many of the 1950's-1980 products have already been authenticated by Steve. Yes, there are some items out there that still have not been reviewed by BBCE. However, most all unopened in the hands of collectors and dealers have valued Steve's opinion to have it looked at. I can't imagine a knowledgeable collector that is sitting on a 1971 Topps baseball box that has not used his service. I am sure Aunt Cathy from Little Rock might have a box of this in her closet which has not been wrapped, but that is only because she is not aware of BBCE or the value. But going back to your question, there are many boxes out there from 1981 Topps and newer that are sitting unwrapped/unverified. My guess is that someone in the industry like OPC Tom or Kurt? from Iowa will be the new authenticator. Great question!
Shane
If it were this easy to just train, PSA would have forced Steve to share his process years ago. It appears that even PSA is begging Steve not to retire. They will soon stop grading packs--period.
Steve is one of the good dudes.
He's as reasonable as anyone and will go extra to protect his excellent earned reputation.
"You've gotta be a man to play this game...but you'd better have a lot of little boy in you, too"--Roy Campanella
20 years ago Steve was just ramping up and that experience of looking at all those packs is what created the expertise. I would have to think between the last 10 years and next 15-20 there is an apprentice gaining the same experience to take the helm.
Before Steve Mark Murphy was the go to. Murphy had a fire and then became a surfer(not sure if this is true but why else move to San diego
) and Steve's star grew exponentially once that happened.
I don't foresee either Kurt or Tom in that role as they have their own businesses to run but there is a limited number of vintage unopened collectors with the knowledge and experience to step in for Steve should that day arrive, which hopefully won't be anytime soon.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
My recollection from Steve (either in public forum or direct) is that he is training staff (who and how many I don’t know) to assume responsibility at some point.
Others here know the BBCE far better than me. But that, to me, seems like the most plausible and optimal option for us unopened guys.
John
I know at one time here I mentioned that Reed could take up the mantle as he was trusted by steve as a lead buyer. He did reply to the comment. I cant remember verbatim, but the gist was that he considered Steve much more of an expert than he. It is possible he was being humble, but that was the paraphrase.
I personally had always considered Reed to be a top expert in the field for sure.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Reed is no longer with BBCE, correct? I realize it doesn't mean he can't go back, or authenticate on his own. I've also always been a huge fan of Reed.
Steve is still here though. Aren’t Steve and reed like the same age if it matters?
I don't get the feeling Reed has any interest. He enjoys the thrill of the hunt.
I believe so. Steve is only in his early 50s, people talk about him like he's 75, lol.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
He has stated that on multiple occasions in the past, as well,
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
We are actually lucky that there are several on this board who have extremely high levels of expertise on this board when it comes to unopened product especially as it relates to 70’s product.
I have the same amount of confidence in anything from Tim(Grote), Mike (CPA Mike), and a few others when it comes to buying unopened and trusting it. Their knowledge regarding if something is good, players are in the correct cells from the correct A or B sheet… is something we are very fortunate to have in the hobby. BBCE provides a great service and Steve has always been great to deal with, and hopefully he sticks around for another 20-30 years - it it tough being a one man show for sure time wise. RVP also does a very good job knowing unopened and is gaining a large following as well.
I have great confidence in this group as collectors and the knowledge they have shared on this board.
I will also post any follow up questions I have after I receive the items, so as to gain even more knowledge from everyone.
This is a great learning opportunity for me and I’m really happy to be participating.
Live long, and prosper.
GI Joe says sometimes the only way to win is not to play. And that is half the battle. Or something like that. It was definitely GI Joe.
Being less cryptic, I'd say it highly surprising that the GI Joe/Pokemon box multi-million dollar BBCE debacle has not come up in this discussion. That's not exactly a skeleton that can just be stuffed in a closet and goes away forever if no one ever talks about it again.
It has been discussed at length, just not in this thread. I think it is pretty clear Steve stepped out of his lane when "authenticating" this case and most likely will not do it again.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Nah, let's continue to beat a dead horse. SMH
What happened on the GI Joe box? Never heard about that one.
Thanks for any replies.
I think they just pulled a bunch of Cobra Commander and Snake Eyes base cards. They were really hoping for a Stormshadow
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I find it a little amusing when people ask someone more knowledgeable for their opinion, be it BBCE or PSA or whoever, and then get all bent out of shape when they are not happy with the results.
Everyone should be aware that there are scammers out there and some are very good at what they do.
I think it's impossible to authenticate vintage unopened and probably should reliablity factors sewn into the equation.
Like:
90% - unopened
80% - unopened
etc.
Never should be 100% unless the item was shipped directly to the person and the case was never opened.
Save some for me!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240