I think the prices of some BBCE boxes would completely justify the spend. Especially if it was trackable.
The wrap worked at the time since a lot of these boxes got ripped, there wasn't a need for a hard case. I bet a lot of us have boxes in our collection that worth well into 4-5 digits, that weren't that way when you bought them.
Most of the biggest critics of BBCE dont even collect vintage unopened product but enjoy the drama this topic inevitably affords. Those that do understand the landscape and the significance and value of Steve's seal of approval and the prices today reflect that as much or even more over this past year. As I stated previously, if you have any doubts about the contents of your boxes, you can always send them to BBCE for inspection. In the OP's case, I dont believe that set was in the same state it was when Steve first pulled it from a case and wrapped it. If anyone has another set from that case, it would be interesting to see it opened.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I used to buy quite a bit of unopened (preferably wrapped) but I would mostly open. Now that PSA's grading on vintage (and cost and wait times) seems to have gotten really tough I've stopped doing that. It's nothing against BBCE, because I thought they're totally reputable. I just don't do it because it's a money-losing path and I just go for the graded. Easier to protect my investment.
Set was not purchased from BBCE, yet OP seems to be pointing out that it's their mistake.
Seems to me that anyone buying older product to rip has buying options. Buying from BBCE does not (imo) guarantee the product is unsearched. Steve is certainly an expert, but no one's perfect.
Seller here could have removed the card and resealed.
OP could have an issue with BBCE and making the whole thing up.
A few years ago, before 1985 Topps Baseball boxes went completely nuts, I purchased one from BBCE. No McGwire's, no Puckett's and one Clemens with a huge print spot on the back.
Packs all looked good to me. Was that Steve's fault? NO!
If you choose to open ANY older material, it's a gamble.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Even so, those boxes are too rare to warrant a complete redesign of BBCE's standard way of wrapping all boxes.
However I could see them implementing some sort of top tier or high end premium option of sealing certain boxes with an acrylic case and tamper-evident seal. That would cut down on the number of molds needed for all the different sizes of boxes.
In the end, someone will always try to cheat the system. I lost faith in cello wrap when I watched people buy boxes of cards from Target/Walmart, take them home and carefully cut the cellophane, open and reseal the packs AND the cellophane on the box, and take them back to Target/Walmart to get their money back. They eventually stopped taking returns for cards.
Unfortunately, we live in a time where any measures or preventive methods made to protect or authenticate something (wraps, seals, cases, labels, etc.) can be replicated. The professional criminals have the technology and are getting better at their craft.
Before we get all MacGyver on the box wrap, the only way to settle this for certain (at least mostly certain) is to open another set from this case break. If there is a fake wrap source out there, then we should be seeing this scam in large numbers soon. No one goes to that trouble for one set.
Did the OP reach out to either the seller and/or Steve about this?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The BBCE is the only reason I bought some unopened material in the first place. Buying BBCE wrapped items from a third party could be hit and miss. I still feel for the OP and wish nothing but good luck in seeking recourse.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
Seems to me that anyone buying older product to rip has buying options. Buying from BBCE does not (imo) guarantee the product is unsearched. Steve is certainly an expert, but no one's perfect.
If you choose to open ANY older material, it's a gamble.
Those are not the best selling points for BBCE
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Seems to me that anyone buying older product to rip has buying options. Buying from BBCE does not (imo) guarantee the product is unsearched. Steve is certainly an expert, but no one's perfect.
If you choose to open ANY older material, it's a gamble.
Those are not the best selling points for BBCE
I am not trying to make points for or against BBCE. If I were to buy something to rip, I would feel safer buying DIRECTLY from them.
Only the foolish think you can buy any older unopened material and be 100% sure it has not been searched.
The same goes for graded cards, there are plenty of altered cards in slabs. Much safer than raw, of course, but there are some very talented people who can and do beat the system.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Seems to me that anyone buying older product to rip has buying options. Buying from BBCE does not (imo) guarantee the product is unsearched. Steve is certainly an expert, but no one's perfect.
If you choose to open ANY older material, it's a gamble.
Those are not the best selling points for BBCE
I am not trying to make points for or against BBCE. If I were to buy something to rip, I would feel safer buying DIRECTLY from them.
Only the foolish think you can buy any older unopened material and be 100% sure it has not been searched.
The same goes for graded cards, there are plenty of altered cards in slabs. Much safer than raw, of course, but there are some very talented people who can and do beat the system.
Exactly, it's an absolute no brainer and anyone who truly believes otherwise is simply clueless about that aspect of the hobby and should just simply avoid discussing it.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The seller has a plethora of BBCE wrapped boxes and packs. I would be concerned about all of it if what the OP posted is true. The FASC stamp is an issue for sure. I'm not sure how someone can reseal the wrap on those boxes if its real. Its so tight. I would be interested in cross referencing the bar codes on the labels. Are they unique and is there a database available?
@PatriotTrading said:
The seller has a plethora of BBCE wrapped boxes and packs. I would be concerned about all of it if what the OP posted is true. The FASC stamp is an issue for sure. I'm not sure how someone can reseal the wrap on those boxes if its real. Its so tight. I would be interested in cross referencing the bar codes on the labels. Are they unique and is there a database available?
In the mid 1990's while going to school I worked at small computer firm. The owner and a "lackey" would open software duplicate the discs then re-shrinkwrap. Sometimes they would also sometimes remove manuals to keep on the shelf. The owner even splurged for professional shrinkwrap gear.
Only wanted to relate the story not saying its applicable to this situation.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I worked at a manufacturing plant that made circuit boards, the shipping department had heat sealing machines and a shrink wrap "tunnel" for wrapping our product. With a little practice, you could seal stuff very professionally.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@rcmb3220 said:
Purchased a 1989 Score Football FASC set from eBay. It’s missing the Barry Sanders card, the only card missing. Also, the only section that is in numerical order are the green cards, which contain all the rookies. All the other colors are kind of in numerical order but do skip around.
Attached photo is of the key rookies that were actually in the set. If you’re looking for this set, skip any that were from June of 2021.
For the record, I am not blaming the seller at this point. At the very least this should have been caught by BBCE.
The seller has responded and says he is taking a $250 loss per box but they are untampered with by him:
"New message from: mapsales3:
I don’t belong to Collectors Forum unfortunately and not sure why my business/reputation would be in question but I only sell factory sealed, Psa slabbed or bbce products. I highly doubt it’s possible to forge stickers/wrap with the security in place. Plus I work with bbce often and have large orders shipped quite frequently. I do know Score factory sets often had missing cards but I get that we are talking about the Sanders here. The buyer stated all other key rookies were in “fantastic shape” and I have personally opened multiple sets myself with no issues. Also, I have had no complaints with the other sets I sold either. I stand behind my product and made it right with the customer and let him pick one of my 8s or 9s from my personal collection at no charge. To be honest I have no idea how it could be missing but it sounds like an anomaly.
Lastly, If you must know where I got the case please see picture as I bought this on auction for $20,400 ($850 a box) so I am taking a beating on this. Feel free to distribute as needed"
I like to give folks the benefit of the doubt until proof comes along they're the ones doing the criminal behavior. Someone out there doing these type things is making a lot of folks look bad and just as many angry.
They need to be found and exposed for this, because lots of folks have an interest in stopping this type behavior.
I just decided I should add my 2 cents since I had sent a few packs to PSA to be graded and they came back not able to grade as unopened. I bought the packs from BBCE.
@jimrad said:
I just decided I should add my 2 cents since I had sent a few packs to PSA to be graded and they came back not able to grade as unopened. I bought the packs from BBCE.
that is very interesting as it is Steve from BBCE that does the authentication for PSA's pack grading.
to add, I had an 80s wax box that was missing 1 pack. I ordered 1 pack from BBCE to complete the box. that single pack was barely sealed and the wrapper was askew and looked very fishy to me. I ended up getting another pack from a different source. It was most likely an authentic sealed pack, but it isnt one I would sell to someone..
yeah those 1989 Score are typical Junk Wax era high production and high PSA 10 populations abound. IMHO even at $300 a set they are overpriced. Of course they are less numerous than 1989 Pro Set but just about every release even during the Junk era can say that .
Many of those who invested in Junk Wax era product during the pandemic bubble are now learning the cold hard reality of why they are called junk. The lesson will get worse over the next 1-2 years
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
yeah those 1989 Score are typical Junk Wax era high production and high PSA 10 populations abound. IMHO even at $300 a set they are overpriced. Of course they are less numerous than 1989 Pro Set but just about every release even during the Junk era can say that .
Many of those who invested in Junk Wax era product during the pandemic bubble are now learning the cold hard reality of why they are called junk. The lesson will get worse over the next 1-2 years
I disagree on the second part. 89 UD Baseball and 89 Score FB are iconic and will continue to do well.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
As a person who gets the ole' "supply and demand" remarks frequently, I will say that the 1989 Score Football and 1989 Upper deck are just too plentiful. While iconic, they will have a rough time increasing much in value unless they are BGS 10.
Griffey jr has been graded 92,000 just by psa alone. 4,044 psa 10's.
barry score over 25,000 graded with 2,088 psa 10's
Iconic and Valuable do not have to go together. Long-term for the 80s I do not think they will.
Niche and Valuable do not have to go together either. Many of the rarer 80s cards are too niche (test sets, etc.)
Seems the hobby has settled on the Tiffany cards as the ones from the 80s that are close enough to iconic and plentiful enough not to be niche and is putting a premium on these cards.
I read this in a couple of posts and I want to make sure I understand correctly,
Are some people saying that buying a BBCE wrapped product from a third party is an unacceptable risk vs buying it from Steve? It some ways that defeats the purpose of the wrap. Even if there is a "risk" from buying BBCE boxes from a third party, is it really that great that we should fear a tampered box?
I am very familiar with that seller. He is a straight shooter. I don't see him tampering with sets to get a PSA 8 quality Sanders.
yeah those 1989 Score are typical Junk Wax era high production and high PSA 10 populations abound. IMHO even at $300 a set they are overpriced. Of course they are less numerous than 1989 Pro Set but just about every release even during the Junk era can say that .
Many of those who invested in Junk Wax era product during the pandemic bubble are now learning the cold hard reality of why they are called junk. The lesson will get worse over the next 1-2 years
I disagree on the second part. 89 UD Baseball and 89 Score FB are iconic and will continue to do well.
At this juncture I think the best to hope for is they don't totally free-fall. Those who spent 4-6K on the 89 UD Griffey PSA 10 will probably not be investing in that card again. Some may say that is what you get for buying high and they are right but the card will never even approach those levels again unless fools folks like that do it again.
The already staggeringly huge PSA10 supply will continue to go up on "prime" cards from those 2 sets, the question is how much of the demand simply vanishes?
P.S.
A normally non-card collecting colleague of mine spent almost $2k on a 1989 Score Aikman in 2021. Now it is $650-$700 and falling. When it was still near 1K he told me he's never buying another card again. How common are stories similar to that now? Staying away from junk wax unless at junk prices is wise. IT will be 1-2 decades before a new set of suckers novices with money make the same mistakes as those before them.
Disclaimer: I do not sell cards, nor do I collect post 1980 Sports Cards, even though junk wax was my childhood era. As a result no fiscal bias' are in place for me and I simply offer my honest candid OPINIONS.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
just like buying a stock, car, real estate or whatever, you need to do your home work first. Paying 2k on an Aikman is just out there. Maybe if it were a bgs 10, then it would make a little sense.
@ndleo said:
I read this in a couple of posts and I want to make sure I understand correctly,
Are some people saying that buying a BBCE wrapped product from a third party is an unacceptable risk vs buying it from Steve? It some ways that defeats the purpose of the wrap. Even if there is a "risk" from buying BBCE boxes from a third party, is it really that great that we should fear a tampered box?
I am very familiar with that seller. He is a straight shooter. I don't see him tampering with sets to get a PSA 8 quality Sanders.
correct. I dont think anyone here is saying Steve is being dishonest. but the wrap is not enough in my opinion to warrant high prices because it is so easily defeated by scammers. Steve himself said the reason the wrap is "safe" is because it is like a fingerprint and unable to be reapplied in exactly the same position. I would beg to differ.
@ndleo said:
I read this in a couple of posts and I want to make sure I understand correctly,
Are some people saying that buying a BBCE wrapped product from a third party is an unacceptable risk vs buying it from Steve? It some ways that defeats the purpose of the wrap. Even if there is a "risk" from buying BBCE boxes from a third party, is it really that great that we should fear a tampered box?
>
Yes. If you buy directly from BBCE and have a problem, you know that they made a mistake in wrapping something that is not genuine. Each time the item in question passes through another, you no longer can be sure one of these guys didn't tamper with it. The OP comes here and posts that it's BBCE's fault, even though he did not purchase it from them. That seems wrong to me.
>
>
I am very familiar with that seller. He is a straight shooter. I don't see him tampering with sets to get a PSA 8 quality Sanders.
>
>
I don't know either Steve at BBCE or this seller. BBCE could have wrapped a "bad" set, no one's perfect.
The lesson that should be learned here is that any time you buy older material, you are gambling that it's genuine. That includes BBCE's stuff as well as graded cards.
Finally, no one tampers with a set for a PSA 8 Sanders rookie, but seeing that it's the best card in the set, it's doubtful that it was missing from the factory. Somebody went fishing.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@ndleo said:
I read this in a couple of posts and I want to make sure I understand correctly,
Are some people saying that buying a BBCE wrapped product from a third party is an unacceptable risk vs buying it from Steve? It some ways that defeats the purpose of the wrap. Even if there is a "risk" from buying BBCE boxes from a third party, is it really that great that we should fear a tampered box?
I am very familiar with that seller. He is a straight shooter. I don't see him tampering with sets to get a PSA 8 quality Sanders.
correct. I dont think anyone here is saying Steve is being dishonest. but the wrap is not enough in my opinion to warrant high prices because it is so easily defeated by scammers. Steve himself said the reason the wrap is "safe" is because it is like a fingerprint and unable to be reapplied in exactly the same position. I would beg to differ.
That opinion is definitely not shared among unopened collectors if auction prices are any indication.
If anyone here is worried about their boxes or shares the above opinion, I am paying 50 cents on the dollar for any vintage BBCE wrapped boxes
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
If anyone here is worried about their boxes or shares the above opinion, I am paying 50 cents on the dollar for any vintage BBCE wrapped boxes
would you pay more for wrapped rack packs....
60 cents! 😆
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Finally, no one tampers with a set for a PSA 8 Sanders rookie, but seeing that it's the best card in the set, it's doubtful that it was missing from the factory. Somebody went fishing.
Of course that's not the whole issue. The fact that the green cards had been sorted suggests that fishing had occurred.
Question: the buyer shows plastic that purports to be from a wrapped set, but the seller displays a wrapped case. What happened?
If the only card in my collection was an Aikman I paid 2K for, I would never collect cards again either. Whoever advised him to make that purchase should also quit collecting or at worst "investing"
"Sold For: $20,400; Year: 1989; Auction: 2021 spring; Lot #: 2051" Nothing to do with the missing card, but any case/box bought in the cracked up card junkie psycho buyers days of spring 2021 is turning out to be a definite bummer value wise over time.
@72Collector said:
If the only card in my collection was an Aikman I paid 2K for, I would never collect cards again either. Whoever advised him to make that purchase should also quit collecting or at worst "investing"
The price was actually $1800 I did round up. He came to me for advice and I told him never buy high and that the card was mega mass produced. I mentioned we were in a bubble but like many of those on this forum he did not want to believe that. I said in 2 years it would be a hard sell even at $500. I still have about a year to be correct in that prediction. As mentioned without the many rubes folks like him bubble high prices never would have been reached.
BTW in 2020/2021 I warned folks here about bubble perils, the vast majority flamed me. Including one member who even added the comment "Weirdest Bubble Ever" to their signature. To those that "invested" in junk wax cards like my co-worker, I TOLD YOU SO!
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@72Collector said:
If the only card in my collection was an Aikman I paid 2K for, I would never collect cards again either. Whoever advised him to make that purchase should also quit collecting or at worst "investing"
The price was actually $1800 I did round up. He came to me for advice and I told him never buy high and that the card was mega mass produced. I mentioned we were in a bubble but like many of those on this forum he did not want to believe that. I said in 2 years it would be a hard sell even at $500. I still have about a year to be correct in that prediction. As mentioned without the many rubes folks like him bubble high prices never would have been reached.
BTW in 2020/2021 I warned folks here about bubble perils, the vast majority flamed me. Including one member who even added the comment "Weirdest Bubble Ever" to their signature. To those that "invested" in junk wax cards like my co-worker, I TOLD YOU SO!
We will have to agree to disagree but IMHO to keep calling 89 Score FB and 89 UD FB junk wax is wrong. Pointing out how someone buying at the peak and the prices decreasing doesn't mean it's junk wax either.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
There have been just short of 25k Barry Sanders rookies graded of which 21.5K are PSA 8 or above. Figure any raw card is pretty much an 8-10 and there are tons out there. Barry has 13K pro set and 27K Topps Traded graded. All junk wax level pops. Jerry Rice has 27K also junk wax.
Compare that to 1978 Tony Dorset 4K, 1977 Largent 3.5K, 1976 Payton 10,931 (of which 3.6K are PSA8 and above).
Venture to guess a higher percentage of Payton’s are graded than any Sanders or Rice card.
A card can be iconic and still not valuable. Junk wax refers to print run - not quality of the cards.
@brad31 said:
There have been just short of 25k Barry Sanders rookies graded of which 21.5K are PSA 8 or above. Figure any raw card is pretty much an 8-10 and there are tons out there. Barry has 13K pro set and 27K Topps Traded graded. All junk wax level pops. Jerry Rice has 27K also junk wax.
Compare that to 1978 Tony Dorset 4K, 1977 Largent 3.5K, 1976 Payton 10,931 (of which 3.6K are PSA8 and above).
Venture to guess a higher percentage of Payton’s are graded than any Sanders or Rice card.
A card can be iconic and still not valuable. Junk wax refers to print run - not quality of the cards.
Junk WAX era + Huge Print Quantities + Huge Census Pops + Huge amounts still unopened = Junk Wax
BTW same goes for 1989 UD Baseball.
as @brad31 stated "Junk wax refers to print run - not quality of the cards."
Problem here is there's no consideration of demand. 4000+ PSA 10 89 UD Griffeys and 2000+ 89 Score Sanders? Probably 200K collectors would target these as a core element of their pc.
As far as BBCE and Steve go, any true unopened collector will understand the enormous value they provide to this niche of the hobby. True class acts that will go out of their way to ensure high quality service to their customers. I guarantee Steve would have done just that if the op had reached out to him... he takes any tampering or forgery of his wrap very seriously, as any business owner should.
Problem here is there's no consideration of demand. 4000+ PSA 10 89 UD Griffeys and 2000+ 89 Score Sanders? Probably 200K collectors would target these as a core element of their pc.
As far as BBCE and Steve go, any true unopened collector will understand the enormous value they provide to this niche of the hobby. True class acts that will go out of their way to ensure high quality service to their customers. I guarantee Steve would have done just that if the op had reached out to him... he takes any tampering or forgery of his wrap very seriously, as any business owner should.
@craig44 said:
honest question. when Steve retires, and I have to think he must be in his 50s now, who will take up the mantle?
so much of the unopened market is predicated on one mans opinion, what happens when that man isnt actively in the hobby any longer?
I would think he would train other people when that times come. I'm sure he documents his process. There is too much value sitting there for someone not to continue the process.
Comments
Funkos are basically one size... wax/cello/rack boxes have more different sizes than even PSA offers.
I think the prices of some BBCE boxes would completely justify the spend. Especially if it was trackable.
The wrap worked at the time since a lot of these boxes got ripped, there wasn't a need for a hard case. I bet a lot of us have boxes in our collection that worth well into 4-5 digits, that weren't that way when you bought them.
Most of the biggest critics of BBCE dont even collect vintage unopened product but enjoy the drama this topic inevitably affords. Those that do understand the landscape and the significance and value of Steve's seal of approval and the prices today reflect that as much or even more over this past year. As I stated previously, if you have any doubts about the contents of your boxes, you can always send them to BBCE for inspection. In the OP's case, I dont believe that set was in the same state it was when Steve first pulled it from a case and wrapped it. If anyone has another set from that case, it would be interesting to see it opened.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I used to buy quite a bit of unopened (preferably wrapped) but I would mostly open. Now that PSA's grading on vintage (and cost and wait times) seems to have gotten really tough I've stopped doing that. It's nothing against BBCE, because I thought they're totally reputable. I just don't do it because it's a money-losing path and I just go for the graded. Easier to protect my investment.
Set was not purchased from BBCE, yet OP seems to be pointing out that it's their mistake.
Seems to me that anyone buying older product to rip has buying options. Buying from BBCE does not (imo) guarantee the product is unsearched. Steve is certainly an expert, but no one's perfect.
Seller here could have removed the card and resealed.
OP could have an issue with BBCE and making the whole thing up.
A few years ago, before 1985 Topps Baseball boxes went completely nuts, I purchased one from BBCE. No McGwire's, no Puckett's and one Clemens with a huge print spot on the back.
Packs all looked good to me. Was that Steve's fault? NO!
If you choose to open ANY older material, it's a gamble.
Happy to buy 70’s FASC from anyone wishing to unload😀.
Yea much respect Jeff but not so sure when you’re dealing with 5 and 6 figure boxes??
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
Even so, those boxes are too rare to warrant a complete redesign of BBCE's standard way of wrapping all boxes.
However I could see them implementing some sort of top tier or high end premium option of sealing certain boxes with an acrylic case and tamper-evident seal. That would cut down on the number of molds needed for all the different sizes of boxes.
In the end, someone will always try to cheat the system. I lost faith in cello wrap when I watched people buy boxes of cards from Target/Walmart, take them home and carefully cut the cellophane, open and reseal the packs AND the cellophane on the box, and take them back to Target/Walmart to get their money back. They eventually stopped taking returns for cards.
Unfortunately, we live in a time where any measures or preventive methods made to protect or authenticate something (wraps, seals, cases, labels, etc.) can be replicated. The professional criminals have the technology and are getting better at their craft.
Before we get all MacGyver on the box wrap, the only way to settle this for certain (at least mostly certain) is to open another set from this case break. If there is a fake wrap source out there, then we should be seeing this scam in large numbers soon. No one goes to that trouble for one set.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/124851503236?hash=item1d11bac084:g:h8cAAOSwpAhgSulO&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAsJtTo5Y8rk5YkQz7UDP55BsOcizAlww99j1xQZCrDu7p9mJrmDSzIPAaBlppbYEe6CtA6H2YYNxOPsQpKIGzcp88eYSegPbNqZuo5tLFmjbJirCWhTfy/ZNABmx8w/rOmivAgEcSazEyFId9Cc3mvPd7EZqogEv1jRkxwAeahv7wR75iav3jFw+vsTWARe8chEf7sjOoHJaLBhn9sE2IFx9mRmBPIV+cS5UhQWOjWF68|tkp:Bk9SR7zquMvvYA&nma=true&si=kCmBb0%2FxumWJC9HPVZqCuqtwRGE%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
That looks like the seller, Brian.
Did the OP reach out to either the seller and/or Steve about this?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
If you are buying vintage BBCE wrapped items you expect them to be unsearched and genuine.
The BBCE is the only reason I bought some unopened material in the first place. Buying BBCE wrapped items from a third party could be hit and miss. I still feel for the OP and wish nothing but good luck in seeking recourse.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
@JoeBanzai said:
Those are not the best selling points for BBCE
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I am not trying to make points for or against BBCE. If I were to buy something to rip, I would feel safer buying DIRECTLY from them.
Only the foolish think you can buy any older unopened material and be 100% sure it has not been searched.
The same goes for graded cards, there are plenty of altered cards in slabs. Much safer than raw, of course, but there are some very talented people who can and do beat the system.
Exactly, it's an absolute no brainer and anyone who truly believes otherwise is simply clueless about that aspect of the hobby and should just simply avoid discussing it.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The seller has a plethora of BBCE wrapped boxes and packs. I would be concerned about all of it if what the OP posted is true. The FASC stamp is an issue for sure. I'm not sure how someone can reseal the wrap on those boxes if its real. Its so tight. I would be interested in cross referencing the bar codes on the labels. Are they unique and is there a database available?
In the mid 1990's while going to school I worked at small computer firm. The owner and a "lackey" would open software duplicate the discs then re-shrinkwrap. Sometimes they would also sometimes remove manuals to keep on the shelf. The owner even splurged for professional shrinkwrap gear.
Only wanted to relate the story not saying its applicable to this situation.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I worked at a manufacturing plant that made circuit boards, the shipping department had heat sealing machines and a shrink wrap "tunnel" for wrapping our product. With a little practice, you could seal stuff very professionally.
The seller has responded and says he is taking a $250 loss per box but they are untampered with by him:
"New message from: mapsales3:
I don’t belong to Collectors Forum unfortunately and not sure why my business/reputation would be in question but I only sell factory sealed, Psa slabbed or bbce products. I highly doubt it’s possible to forge stickers/wrap with the security in place. Plus I work with bbce often and have large orders shipped quite frequently. I do know Score factory sets often had missing cards but I get that we are talking about the Sanders here. The buyer stated all other key rookies were in “fantastic shape” and I have personally opened multiple sets myself with no issues. Also, I have had no complaints with the other sets I sold either. I stand behind my product and made it right with the customer and let him pick one of my 8s or 9s from my personal collection at no charge. To be honest I have no idea how it could be missing but it sounds like an anomaly.
Lastly, If you must know where I got the case please see picture as I bought this on auction for $20,400 ($850 a box) so I am taking a beating on this. Feel free to distribute as needed"
I like to give folks the benefit of the doubt until proof comes along they're the ones doing the criminal behavior. Someone out there doing these type things is making a lot of folks look bad and just as many angry.
They need to be found and exposed for this, because lots of folks have an interest in stopping this type behavior.
I just decided I should add my 2 cents since I had sent a few packs to PSA to be graded and they came back not able to grade as unopened. I bought the packs from BBCE.
MULLINS5,1966CUDA,nam812,nightcrawler,OAKESY25,PowderedH2O,relaxed,RonBurgundy,samsgirl214,shagrotn77,swartz1,slantycouch,Statman,Wabittwax
that is very interesting as it is Steve from BBCE that does the authentication for PSA's pack grading.
to add, I had an 80s wax box that was missing 1 pack. I ordered 1 pack from BBCE to complete the box. that single pack was barely sealed and the wrapper was askew and looked very fishy to me. I ended up getting another pack from a different source. It was most likely an authentic sealed pack, but it isnt one I would sell to someone..
just one anecdotal experience.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
yeah those 1989 Score are typical Junk Wax era high production and high PSA 10 populations abound. IMHO even at $300 a set they are overpriced. Of course they are less numerous than 1989 Pro Set but just about every release even during the Junk era can say that
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Many of those who invested in Junk Wax era product during the pandemic bubble are now learning the cold hard reality of why they are called junk. The lesson will get worse over the next 1-2 years
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Well, went there today to the new store and picked out one pack on top and…. Say what you want, they are the best.
To me unopened was always a gamble> @82FootballWaxMemorys said:
I disagree on the second part. 89 UD Baseball and 89 Score FB are iconic and will continue to do well.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
As a person who gets the ole' "supply and demand" remarks frequently, I will say that the 1989 Score Football and 1989 Upper deck are just too plentiful. While iconic, they will have a rough time increasing much in value unless they are BGS 10.
Griffey jr has been graded 92,000 just by psa alone. 4,044 psa 10's.
barry score over 25,000 graded with 2,088 psa 10's
and there are tons more out there of both.
Iconic and Valuable do not have to go together. Long-term for the 80s I do not think they will.
Niche and Valuable do not have to go together either. Many of the rarer 80s cards are too niche (test sets, etc.)
Seems the hobby has settled on the Tiffany cards as the ones from the 80s that are close enough to iconic and plentiful enough not to be niche and is putting a premium on these cards.
I read this in a couple of posts and I want to make sure I understand correctly,
Are some people saying that buying a BBCE wrapped product from a third party is an unacceptable risk vs buying it from Steve? It some ways that defeats the purpose of the wrap. Even if there is a "risk" from buying BBCE boxes from a third party, is it really that great that we should fear a tampered box?
I am very familiar with that seller. He is a straight shooter. I don't see him tampering with sets to get a PSA 8 quality Sanders.
aa
At this juncture I think the best to hope for is they don't totally free-fall. Those who spent 4-6K on the 89 UD Griffey PSA 10 will probably not be investing in that card again. Some may say that is what you get for buying high and they are right but the card will never even approach those levels again unless fools folks like that do it again.
The already staggeringly huge PSA10 supply will continue to go up on "prime" cards from those 2 sets, the question is how much of the demand simply vanishes?
P.S.
A normally non-card collecting colleague of mine spent almost $2k on a 1989 Score Aikman in 2021. Now it is $650-$700 and falling. When it was still near 1K he told me he's never buying another card again. How common are stories similar to that now? Staying away from junk wax unless at junk prices is wise. IT will be 1-2 decades before a new set of suckers novices with money make the same mistakes as those before them.
Disclaimer: I do not sell cards, nor do I collect post 1980 Sports Cards, even though junk wax was my childhood era. As a result no fiscal bias' are in place for me and I simply offer my honest candid OPINIONS.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
just like buying a stock, car, real estate or whatever, you need to do your home work first. Paying 2k on an Aikman is just out there. Maybe if it were a bgs 10, then it would make a little sense.
correct. I dont think anyone here is saying Steve is being dishonest. but the wrap is not enough in my opinion to warrant high prices because it is so easily defeated by scammers. Steve himself said the reason the wrap is "safe" is because it is like a fingerprint and unable to be reapplied in exactly the same position. I would beg to differ.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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Yes. If you buy directly from BBCE and have a problem, you know that they made a mistake in wrapping something that is not genuine. Each time the item in question passes through another, you no longer can be sure one of these guys didn't tamper with it. The OP comes here and posts that it's BBCE's fault, even though he did not purchase it from them. That seems wrong to me.
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I don't know either Steve at BBCE or this seller. BBCE could have wrapped a "bad" set, no one's perfect.
The lesson that should be learned here is that any time you buy older material, you are gambling that it's genuine. That includes BBCE's stuff as well as graded cards.
Finally, no one tampers with a set for a PSA 8 Sanders rookie, but seeing that it's the best card in the set, it's doubtful that it was missing from the factory. Somebody went fishing.
That opinion is definitely not shared among unopened collectors if auction prices are any indication.
If anyone here is worried about their boxes or shares the above opinion, I am paying 50 cents on the dollar for any vintage BBCE wrapped boxes
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
would you pay more for wrapped rack packs....
60 cents! 😆
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Of course that's not the whole issue. The fact that the green cards had been sorted suggests that fishing had occurred.
Question: the buyer shows plastic that purports to be from a wrapped set, but the seller displays a wrapped case. What happened?
The seller had steve break the case and wrap each set. I have had BBCE do that for wrapped cases I bought.
If the only card in my collection was an Aikman I paid 2K for, I would never collect cards again either. Whoever advised him to make that purchase should also quit collecting or at worst "investing"
"Sold For: $20,400; Year: 1989; Auction: 2021 spring; Lot #: 2051" Nothing to do with the missing card, but any case/box bought in the cracked up card junkie psycho buyers days of spring 2021 is turning out to be a definite bummer value wise over time.
The price was actually $1800 I did round up. He came to me for advice and I told him never buy high and that the card was mega mass produced. I mentioned we were in a bubble but like many of those on this forum he did not want to believe that. I said in 2 years it would be a hard sell even at $500. I still have about a year to be correct in that prediction. As mentioned without the many rubes folks like him bubble high prices never would have been reached.
BTW in 2020/2021 I warned folks here about bubble perils, the vast majority flamed me. Including one member who even added the comment "Weirdest Bubble Ever" to their signature. To those that "invested" in junk wax cards like my co-worker, I TOLD YOU SO!
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
We will have to agree to disagree but IMHO to keep calling 89 Score FB and 89 UD FB junk wax is wrong. Pointing out how someone buying at the peak and the prices decreasing doesn't mean it's junk wax either.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
There have been just short of 25k Barry Sanders rookies graded of which 21.5K are PSA 8 or above. Figure any raw card is pretty much an 8-10 and there are tons out there. Barry has 13K pro set and 27K Topps Traded graded. All junk wax level pops. Jerry Rice has 27K also junk wax.
Compare that to 1978 Tony Dorset 4K, 1977 Largent 3.5K, 1976 Payton 10,931 (of which 3.6K are PSA8 and above).
Venture to guess a higher percentage of Payton’s are graded than any Sanders or Rice card.
A card can be iconic and still not valuable. Junk wax refers to print run - not quality of the cards.
compared to 56 Topps 76 Payton would be junk was
1989 Score Football:
Junk WAX era + Huge Print Quantities + Huge Census Pops + Huge amounts still unopened = Junk Wax
BTW same goes for 1989 UD Baseball.
as @brad31 stated "Junk wax refers to print run - not quality of the cards."
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Problem here is there's no consideration of demand. 4000+ PSA 10 89 UD Griffeys and 2000+ 89 Score Sanders? Probably 200K collectors would target these as a core element of their pc.
As far as BBCE and Steve go, any true unopened collector will understand the enormous value they provide to this niche of the hobby. True class acts that will go out of their way to ensure high quality service to their customers. I guarantee Steve would have done just that if the op had reached out to him... he takes any tampering or forgery of his wrap very seriously, as any business owner should.
hey baz518 ,
Perfect....
honest question. when Steve retires, and I have to think he must be in his 50s now, who will take up the mantle?
so much of the unopened market is predicated on one mans opinion, what happens when that man isnt actively in the hobby any longer?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I would think he would train other people when that times come. I'm sure he documents his process. There is too much value sitting there for someone not to continue the process.