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Done with BBCE
rcmb3220
Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭✭
Purchased a 1989 Score Football FASC set from eBay. It’s missing the Barry Sanders card, the only card missing. Also, the only section that is in numerical order are the green cards, which contain all the rookies. All the other colors are kind of in numerical order but do skip around.
Attached photo is of the key rookies that were actually in the set. If you’re looking for this set, skip any that were from June of 2021.
For the record, I am not blaming the seller at this point. At the very least this should have been caught by BBCE.
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Did you contact BBCE regarding this? What was their response?
Wow. I will hold my comments for now.
I mean, at one point it was FASC.
Hope its not true. Seller also has several PSA 1989 Score singles including Sanders aikman 10s. And another FASC set.. Seller also has not from a sealed case sets. So I hope this was a mix up. I dont know much about this product and how it was made. Would be interesting to see another one opened then.
No, I did not. And from the excuses we can all come up with, I do not care the hear any of them.
FYI - all key cards that I’ve looked at, not just the ones in the picture, would be PSA 9 or lower based on centering alone.
You should contact him anyway. You put in effort to post this. You should contact him.
I have thought for a long time that basing BBCE authentication on an easily faked sheet of shrink wrap is very tenuous indeed. if the fakers are able to recreate psa slabs, shrink wrap doesn't seem too difficult.
the whole game is based on the fact that the vast majority of BBCE wrapped items will never be opened. I think as more and more get opened, we will encounter much more of this.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
This was inevitable for so many reasons. Thankfully the majority of people are honest. I mean hell we have experts on here that could easily pull it off.
Luckily for me I am like the OP and rip right away.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Many now somehow believe 1986 fleer packs can be collated in alphabetic order... this Koolaid tastes funny...
Sorry for this to happen to you
This is a recent case break. Has anyone else opened one? Maybe Steve has one left to rip live? I would watch
Sorry you got a stinker. Like others have said I would contact Steve about it. While it might be cathartic to vent on this board it won’t do anything to change your situation or box missing cards.
Surely Steve would send you another one...though traditionally the rule is that once the seal is broken there are no takebacks.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
Do you have it on video?
Not saying I don't believe you but as others stated, I'd be interested in seeing it live.
I just saw a non FASC 1980 rack box opened on video and 1/3 of the box featured stars on front or back including one with Henderson on back. That's been a much more common experience with the wrapped items I've seen opened, personally.
In any case, I'm sorry to hear this.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Why do you assume BBCE is at fault and the seller didn't alter it? Cards from the '80s rarely come well centered.
Possible for sure and I did consider that. Title is still accurate since in this scenario I have to rely on the wrap to keep the integrity of the contents.
I only mentioned centering on the cards I did get as a potential reason those cards were passed over by the searcher.
If the set is FASC that means it came from a sealed case. Do you think the case was resealed or do you think someone doctored the wrap?
same here , I opened a non-fasc mid 80s rack box that all the packs had stars showing. also had a friend open an 82 cello box that was almost all stars showing.
sorry it happened to you but did you look at the wrap before you opened it? or just rip away? while it sucks, I do find it somewhat interesting that people are out there faking PSA slabs, selling resealed frosty PSA slabs, selling slabs that may have a questionable card and I don't see any I am done with PSA posts or PSA is terrible and crooked.
in this case I can think of 4 plausible explanations, 1) the case wasn't sealed and the seller knew it but pulled a fast one 2) the seller had it wrapped , slit the wrap when it came back and pulled the sanders and heat sealed where they opened it 3) seller has fake wrap and rewrapped it with the original label or 4) you just want to stir the pot because you didn't get what you wanted out of the set. I am not making any suggestion to any explanation but those seem to be the potential explanations
I’d prob lay blame first on the seller. Fwiw, it wasn’t purchased from BBCE.
The wrapping looked fine. Not to say it wasn’t tampered with but it certainly could have been.
I did not video the opening
And yes, I did not get what I wanted. Specifically the Barry Sanders card that should have been in this set.
The only way to settle this is to open up another set. There has to be one out there. If I were BBCE, I would buy one and rip on video.
Ridiculously easy to fake the BBCE wrap and insert card. I mean guys can reprint cards that are nearly impossible to detect, fake slabs have been a thing for a decade, how hard would it be to defeat shrink-wrap and a card? With the value of wax being so high, expect to see more of this, it is the easiest scam in the hobby today (and there are lots of pretty easy ones).
To be fair to Steve, I'm not sure he could have predicted the insane increase in wax prices. Totally different game when a 200 box ten years ago sells for 3 or 5k today.
I dont have any reason to believe Steve isnt honest. In fact, I believe he is.
that wrap however...
so easy for the counterfeiters to open and rewrap. I think the moral of the story is that when dealing with BBCE wrapped boxes, never, ever open. you truly do not know what you have.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It maybe time for a new BBCE "holder". I think the higher dollar boxes ($2000+) should be in a hard case. If Steve offered this service, I would sign up.
Unless you submitted the box yourself.
Steve will also rewrap at no charge any box anyone has any doubt about.
There are some counterfeit BBCE boxes out there, but they are not common (and usually fairly easily identifiable) and with the new security measures BBCE has taken with regard to certification, especially with the higher value boxes, I believe this issue is already being addressed.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Yes but the old wrap can still be faked. Of course that won't work so well for new stuff that postdates the change.
Not sure if it's a shell game or musical chairs or emperor has no clothes but the risk seem rather high opening "sealed" stuff. Probably a whole lot safer to stick to wax or cello that was encapsulated after authentication.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
I'd agree it can be a concern with the older wrapped boxes (similar to cards in older PSA graded card holders) but Steve also offers a free rewrap for any box sent in and I personally believe the issue is not nearly as pervasive as some would suggest.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
BTW the centering on 1989 can be horrid. As kid i picked up my factory set the week it was issued. The shop had a display of 40 or 50 of them. I grabbed one at random.
When I opened it ,I was rather disappointed with the overall horrid centering. The Sanders and Aikman were probably the best centered green rookies in the set and they are not so great. For me back then the cards went right from the box into pennies inside top loaders. Then later transferred to the one screw holders with the wells so no pressure ever was applied to the cards.
Wish I has submitted the Aikman many years ago as its a blazer. I have seen worse centering on many 10's of the card in the past, but now that 6 and 7's are the new 10's, getting anything less than a 10 and the sub fees simply not worth it to me.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
There have been more than plenty PSA hate posts, but anything even remotely critical of PSA gets deleted and members banned. Look at the list of banned members who used to be some of the most esteemed contributors to this board. A lot of those guys got the boot because of comments made about PSA that the moderator didn't agree with.
Brian
I think PSA is more then fair when it comes to comments on this board. Of course you can't continually slag them, I wouldn't let someone in to my house that continually made fun of the décor, or the food.
You mean family?
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
I am very sorry for the OP that this happened.
The seller could have also gotten it through someone else and not know anything about it. We do not know the chain of custody on this. Having said that, it is still good to alert Steve at BBCE that this is happening. Someone is very likely breaking these seals and sealing them again. I would also report this to eBay, the seller and Paypal. People buy FASC because they expect to get all the cards of the set, not necessarily PSA 10s. Wouldn't eBay back the buyer on this?
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Really unideal outcome for OP.
That said, I am fairly certain that our amazing hobby would be much worse off without Steve Hart.
I have had hundreds of boxes pass through that man’s hands in past decade and he has always steered me right.
No one is perfect. But being right the overwhelming amount of the time coupled with business ethics and an impeccable moral compass makes for an incredible asset to any unopened collector.
I hope people can appreciate how lucky we are, because we can only hope Steve trains his staff to be 90% effective for the next 20-30 year run.
Don’t blame the guy who tries to keep the hobby honest people.
Blame the dirtbag who tries to slip one past the goalie and perhaps succeeds on their 1237tb try.
John
I think it's better to be 100% effective. When you are one of the 10% and you lose thousands, 10's of thousands and in one case over $1 Million, hoping to 90% effective isn't good enough.
With all the things that have come out recently about bad boxes and repacked boxes, you really have to wonder how much bad stuff is really out there that they made mistakes on.
Thru my experience alone they have been 100% on the boxes that my friends and I have opened since 2010 when I got back into the hobby. Now this is a guesstimate, but easily over 50 boxes and maybe closer to 100. All 80s.
I didn’t want to imply that BBCE is perfect, bc that is a bar that no one in this role could meet given the nature of this business. But for the small sample
size that we’ve opened, they are batting 1000.
That said, I agree with you that 90% is prob not good enough and it was a lowball target I put out there with no evidentiary basis. I’m not sure what the % is that should be acceptable. 97, 98, 99, 99+ But no one operating today, or ever, has been better at what they do.
John
Excuses once again for BBCE. The excuses are becoming common. While I do believe Steve is THE Authority the multiple issues and at least 1 total debacle that have come to light the past 12 months + no doubt more to come proves something is being done wrong.
Those who own raw BBCE wrapped stuff now need to be very concerned. The cache "the wrap" carried to some is now gone. Perception is key and every time news of an another incident breaks it goes down further.
I do not have any answers to offer but the foundation of the building as it were is decaying and something needs be done up to and including replacing the structure.
Bottom line: Steve's trustworthiness is not on trial nor am I even alluding to it BUT the system of "the wrap" is simply not working and likley never truly did. Sweeping changes must be instituted to prevent perception from dropping into negative territory for the hobby at large. BBCE may very well be at crossroads the path they take at this juncture may determine their viability and place in the hobby.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
these threads are so tiring, if the wrap is so in question , unwrap your boxes and see if you like your packs since you feel the wrap has no value.
for all the complainers who don't have experience buying packs , can you share your success rate of buying unwrapped boxes? is it better or worse than buying a bbce box? also can you share your success rate buying raw cards, is it better or worse than buying a PSA card?
Steve made one mistake that I am sure he regrets and that was wrapping the pokemon case, other than that his accuracy rate is pretty darn impressive. "The multiple issues", honestly if anyone expects 100% accuracy they have no idea what they are buying. no one expects 100% accuracy from PSA. it would be nice but it is just not realistic. I have opened way more bbce boxes than I should admit. both before he was authenticating for others and after, I have not had a single questionable box! the OP has an example of something went wrong somewhere and deserves to speak up. for everyone else with all of their doubts , what is y'all personal failure/success rates?
keep complaining, keep posting youtube videos. I hope you get tons of hits, clicks and can make a few bucks from super chats.
^^^^^^ its not Steve, it is the process. basing an entire hobby niche on some plastic shrink wrap is folly. I wonder how many "sealed" boxes are either searched or full of G I Joe packs? again, this whole thing is based on the fact that the VAST majority of shrink-wrapped boxes will never be opened.
I agree that especially high-dollar boxes need more encapsulation than simple shrink wrap. Maybe a sealed hard case or something similar to "slabbed" star wars figures. The price for encapsulation would go up, but this niche would seem much more secure.
The new "system" with the QR code linking to pictures is nice and all, but when money is involved, the scammers can be very convincing.
"Over the past few months we have added a QR code to boxes over a certain value. When scanned with your phone, this will take you to our website and a photo is that exact box. Like a signature, no two boxes have the BBCE wrap in the exact same spots. This will allow for a quick check on authenticity that was not previously available."
Steve is basing his authenticity on two holograms and the idea that professional counterfeiters cannot replicate the shrink wrap "signature" on the uploaded photo.
yikes.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
retry #2
I have not said anything that was not positive regarding Steve and I do NOT "youtube". The hobby around "the wrap" is ripe for imploding and it may very well be in progress.
Based on your post you have vested fiscal reason to defend them to the hilt, I however have zero money invested in "the wrap" therefore I can be brutally honest in when I say the entire "wrap" paradigm is flawed and changes likley sweeping are needed
To re-iterate I have not said anything that was not positive regarding Steve and I do NOT "youtube". Not clear on why you are inexplicable defending him from what are only positive statements regarding his acumen and trustworthiness My apologies if your post was not in fact directed at mine.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
It was a $1,000,000 mistake. You can't really sweep that under the rug.
Also this one involves a FASC box which up to now, I (and many of us here) thought was a safer bet than the standard wrap box.
To be fair I think BBCE is a trustworthy company run by a guy who is honest. Unfortunately, the market has changed a lot since he started wrapping things, and the extremely high prices have opened up his typical process for easy forgeries. He has to either improve his process or he'll lose the trust of the collectors and, eventually, his business. It's really up to him to change with the times and I'm sure he knows that.
to clarify this has nothing to do with a vested fiscal reason. Do I have many wrapped boxes , absolutely. If I unwrap them do I still have an incredible amount of value, absolutely. The value of my boxes are in the packs themselves, not the wrap. The wrap is something that has made it easy for collectors who do not know what to look for in a pack comfortable. I sold 100s of thousands of dollars worth of boxes and packs before there was such a thing as bbce wrap, I will continue to buy and sell with and without wrap without issue
the youtube comments may have come across directed at you, apologies. it was directed at all the clowns out there dramatizing anything they can find. there are the loud mouths and then there are even the breakers who make comments in their break just to increase viewership and hits. look at jabs 1977 box break with the lets hope the box is good and what not as he opened it so he could get more hits and more people throwing down superchats. his comments on o-pee-chee box that he lost on that many were ripping bbce when it was jabs fault for not having a clue that 72 opc gum is notorious for bleeding through whole pack.
no one is weeping it under the rug. it was poor jedgement to go outside his expertise and clearly a lesson was learned. that doesn't make it right but it doesn't make all of the boxes in his expertise whong
and yes this is FASC, it could be a mistake , it could be the OP looking for drama, it could be the seller. Not making excuses but when there is 1 question mark I would not jump to conclusions that all FASC boxes/sets are in question.
"The value of my boxes are in the packs themselves, not the wrap. The wrap is something that has made it easy for collectors who do not know what to look for in a pack comfortable."
The value in your unwrapped boxes may be in the packs to YOU, but the vast vast majority of unopened collectors would disagree. check out the difference in sold listings between wrapped and unwrapped. that 1 Mill of plastic does in fact mean a lot to many collectors when it comes to value.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
that is because the common buyer has no idea what to look for in a pack and has to buy a wrapped box because otherwise they will most likely get ripped off. If you are a seller with a good reputation the packs will have value and there will be many willing to transact. we all did it before bbce wrap.
The irony of all this is that if steve said f-it and didn't wrap another box, many of the complainers and conspiracy theorists would still buy boxes and packs from him
I have as much into BBCE boxes at the next guy on this board. It is clear that an issue is developing. Unlike PSA, the value of BBCE boxes depend entirely on Steve's rep. No one here knows the grader of their cards, but we all have come to believe that Steve has blessed each BBCE box.
I think a reasonable collector can look at these issues and have questions about the legitimacy of the BBCE wrap. Yes it may be a small amount of questionable boxes, but how would you feel if it is the box you bought? The scary part is we may never know the extent of the issue until many years later if these boxes get ripped.
I'm sure the usual "I'll buy what you have at a discount" posts will come up. But as a pro-BBCE collector, I think it is clear Steve needs to make some big changes. Maybe PSA can help him with a hard case system and serial number system.
I know I should have shot a video of me opening the set but I will say the wrap looked fine. So either the whole thing was rewrapped new with fake holo sticker, BBCE wrap and sticker, or the case was bad to begin with. I think the set case is easier to tamper with than the BBCE wrap and I think that’s what happened. But I have no proof obviously.
Maybe PSA can help him with a hard case system and serial number system.
The design and material cost alone would price out EVERYONE from using his service.
I agree. Hard to think that they are intentionally doing anything. Unopened is a crap shoot. That's why, after the box appreciates greatly, i avoid it. I pick up my unopened that either way under the radar or before they go way up. Still doesn't guarantee anything but if the most valuable card in the box is $2, then the chances go way down for tomfoolery.
I'm not sure about that. They can do it with Funkos, I would guess it would be easy enough for boxes.