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Let's talk about determining "worth" of our coins

CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,601 ✭✭✭✭✭

Is it as simple as what one person is willing to pay at a given point in time?

The toned MS63 1964 Kennedy wasn't worth $500 to many posters on that thread that was the outcome of the GC auction. Obviously, color premiums for eye appealing coins are nothing new in the hobby.

Who's to say it wasn't worth it? Not for me, but why not be happy for the winner?

Price guides always lag the market and address generic median data points.

How do you price personal enjoyment value over time?

"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
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Comments

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is one big advantage to selling things like the "color" 1963 Kennedy Half at auction. The actual seller remains unknown and thus can't be contacted for an offer if the coin comes up for sale in the future. I'm sure many dealers and collectors would love to sell a coin like that for big money but would not want to ever be offered it for repurchase. To them it is strictly a one way sale.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • GrantuGrantu Posts: 188 ✭✭✭

    This is a great topic and I think as collectors we take pride in the coins we choose to buy. So I think that’s why being aware of the endowment effect is crucial when thinking about certain prices on coins.

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The MS63 Kennedy is a great example I think.

    The definition of worth - "the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held." (Webster).

    Is it worth $500? Absolutely. Why? Someone paid that much for it. Could it be worth more? Yes. Less? Not at the time it was sold.

    Here's my thought process. The worth of something should be the highest value or amount of money (esteem in which is is held) a person wishes to pay for a good or service. That number can vary with person, but that variance doesn't matter - because it is the highest value. Someone paid $500 for the coin. Therefore, it is worth $500. However, someone could come along and pay $600 for it, making the worth higher. If someone offers $400, the worth doesn't drop - someone still wishes to pay $500.

    The caveat is this - the worth of an item is subject to time, just like we all are. Hopefully I didn't ramble off into incoherency here.

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

  • ShaunBC5ShaunBC5 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2022 3:33PM

    I feel like my coins are a store of value, but mostly from the standpoint of wanting to not be frivolous. If I had to sell, I know most of my coins aren’t bringing back a profit.
    When I value my coins on a spreadsheet, I usually use CoinFacts (or in the past, a physical retail magazine).
    I’m looking now at sorting my coins into multiple categories like “core collection,” “sentimental,” “sellable” and they will each have different monetary values in my head.
    Really, every penny I’ve ever spent on coins is a sunk cost and anything I can get back is a bonus. The enjoyment is the real value and the coins I have show how much money I had for that kind of entertainment at the time the coin was purchased.

    Edit: I think I rambled off topic a bit. I think what I was really trying to say is that we each assign “worth” differently, but maybe only the open market can determine a true snapshot of worth at a given moment.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,850 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2022 6:41PM

    I sold a run of Moon Knight comics yesterday. Opening bid was $199. An hour before it ended, some generous soul emailed me to offer $170. Hammer price was $243. Clearly, different people have it different values.

    In fact, you could argue that auctions work on that principle. Every bidder puts a different value on the item. There was, after all, an underbidder in the GC auction.

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This was a big issue I chronicled in my post about getting an appraisal and ultimately insurance through Hugh Wood.
    With a pretty esoteric collection, I ultimately opted to go with pretty conservative estimates based on,
    A ) Coins that were as close to mine as possible,
    B ) Actual sales via auction, including eBay, as recently as possible,
    C ) Not being overly generous on my inflators like stars, pluses, fine styles, or older holders,
    D ) Discounting toning unless it is truly exceptional. Being conservative with its added value when it is exceptional.

    That said, I feel that CAC can make a significant difference, and adjusted prices accordingly when there were no recent CAC comps.

    Ultimately, there is a difference between "Market Value" and "Replacement Value". I seek out unusual pieces. Unusual pieces are hard to replace--even if similar pieces can be found on the market.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • 124Spider124Spider Posts: 847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2022 3:45PM

    I use Greysheet value as a ballpark measure for what I'm willing to pay for a coin (or what I think, for bookkeeping purposes, a coin in my collection is worth). If the coin has been difficult to find in the grade I'm looking for, and/or if a coin is particularly appealing to my eye (I dislike garish toning, but I know lots of people love it), I'm generally willing to pay a premium over what I otherwise will consider my top price.

    I like auctions (specifically Great Collections) because I sometimes get a coin for less than I would be willing to pay, and, conversely, if I'm the strategic buyer (i.e., I want it a lot), I can bid an amount that pretty much guarantees that I'll get it. Of course, if there's a wealthier strategic buyer for the same coin (as happens with some frequency), I'm screwed. :)

    I do this for pleasure, but I am mindful that I spend a lot of money on coins, and I'm careful not to pay hugely disproportionate to what the objective market data suggests the coin is worth; my pleasure is worth some money, but not a large percentage of the amounts I pay--I feel that if, on average, I'm converting $1 of liquid assets (cash) into $0.80 of illiquid value (price I could get for the coin if I sold it), the other $0.20 is fair value for my pleasure.

  • rip_frip_f Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭

    How do you price personal enjoyment value over time?

    .
    What a deep philosophical and totally first-world question. For us numismatists with discretionary spending limits, the personal enjoyment value is a key variable in the purchase of coin because the monetary value was restricted by competing needs.
    For those without discretionary spending limits, the personal enjoyment value is also a key variable because the cost is less significant. Only the very subjective nature of 'enjoyment' differs.
    Over time - seeing that your decision to acquire the coin was a good one, makes the personal enjoyment value become almost equal to the original price. ;)

  • gtstanggtstang Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It was proven to have a "value" of $500 but that does not make it "worth" $500. That goes for many collectibles.
    We've all seen the "buy this now for x amount of dollars for a great deal. It has a full value of xxx amount of dollars!

  • 124Spider124Spider Posts: 847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gtstang said:
    It was proven to have a "value" of $500 but that does not make it "worth" $500. That goes for many collectibles.
    We've all seen the "buy this now for x amount of dollars for a great deal. It has a full value of xxx amount of dollars!

    I think you're getting into the subjective part of "worth." I think we can look at objective market data (e.g., Red Book values; Greysheet values; PCGS/NGC/CAC values) for a general ballpark for value, but only the market can determine the "value " of a particular coin at a particular time and place.

    What something is "worth" to a person is a function of at least two variables--how much financial resources that person has, and how much that person wants that thing. For instance, I'll never be one driving up the price of a MS67 truly rare coin, because I don't have enough money to buy that coin, regardless of how much I might want that coin (e.g., one of the few holes in my various collections is the 1893-S Morgan dollar, because I am unwilling to pay what it costs in a grade I'm happy to have in my collection; that doesn't mean the prices for that coin are unreasonable, only that it's not "worth it" to me.

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,729 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2022 9:39AM

    Once my irrational perception of a thing's value drops to the level of another person's irrational perception, it's time to sell.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I haven't seen anything I want to buy lately at the offered prices. I therefore conclude that everything on the market today is overpriced.

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The problem with determining the "worth" of coins is their ambiguous nature.

    Coins are mass-produced artifacts. There are millions of them out there, and lots of them are hidden away in hoards and collections where they aren't currently available to the market, but probably will become available one day. There are generally agreed-upon criteria and standards for determining the condition of a coin, and a study of historical records and statistical analysis of surviving examples can give an estimate of rarity. Logically, it all should be very scientific and dispassionate, classic supply and demand, which is what you want if an artifact is to become fully commoditized, and only fully commoditized fungible artifacts can have objective, rationally determinable and predictable prices. Slabs have certainly helped in the coin commoditization process; the whole point of inventing slabs back in the 1980s was to allow people to trade coins by mail-order sight-unseen and still have confidence that they'd get value for money.

    However, coins are also unique. Each one has had a different history, and that history has imparted to each individual coin an appearance as unique as a fingerprint. Some of the physical results of that history are appealing to the eye of a majority of collectors; others are not. And even here, collectors can have different opinions about what exactly makes a coin "ugly" or "beautiful". Neither side is "right or "wrong" in holding those beliefs; it's an aesthetic opinion which cannot be challenged scientifically or rationally. Thus coins can be seen as being the equivalent to the artwork or antiquities markets, where each item is a unique treasure; since from this point of view the supply for every coin is precisely "1", demand alone determines the price.

    Thus, coins are simultaneously fungible and non-fungible, mass-produced and unique. It is the chaotic inter-reaction between these two opposing market dynamics that make coin pricing so darned unpredictable.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2022 5:29PM

    @FlyingAl said:
    The MS63 Kennedy is a great example I think.

    The definition of worth - "the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held." (Webster).

    Is it worth $500? Absolutely. Why? Someone paid that much for it. Could it be worth more? Yes. Less? Not at the time it was sold.

    Here's my thought process. The worth of something should be the highest value or amount of money (esteem in which is is held) a person wishes to pay for a good or service. That number can vary with person, but that variance doesn't matter - because it is the highest value. Someone paid $500 for the coin. Therefore, it is worth $500. However, someone could come along and pay $600 for it, making the worth higher. If someone offers $400, the worth doesn't drop - someone still wishes to pay $500.

    The caveat is this - the worth of an item is subject to time, just like we all are. Hopefully I didn't ramble off into incoherency here.

    The variance in price that different buyers are willing to pay does matter, when determining “worth”.
    Why would the $500 coin later be worth $600 if someone subsequently offered that for it, but at the same time, still be worth $500 if someone was subsequently willing to pay only $400 for it?

    Once a coin has sold (whether privately or publicly via auction) its’ worth isn’t necessarily tied to its previous transaction price. Additionally, while there might be one or more buyers for a coin at a top-dollar price, its’ owner might not know who the high buyers are or how to reach them. For example, even if there are two buyers for your $500 coin at $1000, but you don’t know that or them, is it “worth” $1000?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 697 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2022 6:07PM

    @FlyingAl said:
    The MS63 Kennedy is a great example I think.

    The definition of worth - "the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held." (Webster).

    Is it worth $500? Absolutely. Why? Someone paid that much for it. Could it be worth more? Yes. Less? Not at the time it was sold.

    Here's my thought process. The worth of something should be the highest value or amount of money (esteem in which is is held) a person wishes to pay for a good or service. That number can vary with person, but that variance doesn't matter - because it is the highest value. Someone paid $500 for the coin. Therefore, it is worth $500. However, someone could come along and pay $600 for it, making the worth higher. If someone offers $400, the worth doesn't drop - someone still wishes to pay $500.

    The caveat is this - the worth of an item is subject to time, just like we all are. Hopefully I didn't ramble off into incoherency here.

    The flaw in your thinking is that it is consistently worth $500 when this type of coin will be $250, 300, 400 600 etc depending on the auction and competition. A PCGS MS 65 1921 MS 65 Peace dollar will usually be in a range say of $2300-2700 so it’s fair to say that coin is worth approximately $2500. A PCGS 1945 half will almost always see around 115-135.

  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Everything is set that way it’s not just in coins that is why so many people look for items that can be sold you never know what your going to find or how much it will go for.



    Hoard the keys.
  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Eye appeal adds alpha.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Eye appeal adds alpha.

    But don't forget the beta...

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,601 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know I’m buried in a couple of coins in my collection and it does bother me a little to be at the “end of the line” (humming the Traveling Willbury’s song now in my head) as various owners have realized their profit. Yet I don’t dwell on it much because I want what I want and will defer the disappointment feeling when that time comes. Of course, maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised instead that it wasn’t bad after all. :)

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    In the case of MS65 1921 Peace dollars, as well as a great many other coins, I think it’s less clear than the above. Listed below are the last five MS65 1921 Peace Dollars auctioned by Heritage - each on the same day in the same sale, last month. “Worth” is a most elusive concept.

    1921 $1 MS65 PCGS $2,760
    1921 $1 MS65 NGC $5,040
    1921 $1 MS65 PCGS $2,640
    1921 $1 MS65 NGC $2,880
    1921 $1 MS65 PCGS/CAC $3,720

    WOW, Mark! That is quite a range in price AND QUALITY even at the MS65 grade level.
    It's worthwhile for everyone to pull up the Heritage Auction Archives, sort by most recent sales, and take a look at the coins you referenced.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Broadstruck said:

    @291fifth said:
    There is one big advantage to selling things like the "color" 1963 Kennedy Half at auction.

    I'd be just as happy with an untoned 1963 Kennedy. :*

    Carr might be able to help you out ;)

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    The MS63 Kennedy is a great example I think.

    The definition of worth - "the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held." (Webster).

    Is it worth $500? Absolutely. Why? Someone paid that much for it. Could it be worth more? Yes. Less? Not at the time it was sold.

    Here's my thought process. The worth of something should be the highest value or amount of money (esteem in which is is held) a person wishes to pay for a good or service. That number can vary with person, but that variance doesn't matter - because it is the highest value. Someone paid $500 for the coin. Therefore, it is worth $500. However, someone could come along and pay $600 for it, making the worth higher. If someone offers $400, the worth doesn't drop - someone still wishes to pay $500.

    The caveat is this - the worth of an item is subject to time, just like we all are. Hopefully I didn't ramble off into incoherency here.

    The variance in price that different buyers are willing to pay does matter, when determining “worth”.
    Why would the $500 coin later be worth $600 if someone subsequently offered that for it, but at the same time, still be worth $500 if someone was subsequently willing to pay only $400 for it?

    Once a coin has sold (whether privately or publicly via auction) its’ worth isn’t necessarily tied to its previous transaction price. Additionally, while there might be one or more buyers for a coin at a top-dollar price, its’ owner might not know who the high buyers are or how to reach them. For example, even if there are two buyers for your $500 coin at $1000, but you don’t know that or them, is it “worth” $1000?

    I agree fully with your premises. I tried to make those situations clear in my OP, but I think I failed to.

    I did state that if a person offered $600, the worth went up. I was only saying the variance does not matter if the highest possible price has been obtained. Once that threshold has been reached, the lower values that could be offered cease to matter, like if someone put in a $400 bid. I see there is an error in my post - once the $600 offer comes in the worth is $600, not $500. That was what I was trying to say when I talked about variance not mattering.

    I also stated that the worth is dependent on time - once the sale has been completed the worth can change - either up or down. And I would say that yes - in your $1000 situation the coin is worth $1000. Someone is willing to pay that price for the coin. The problem is finding that buyer, but that is something different than worth.

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

  • WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 697 ✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Walkerlover said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    The MS63 Kennedy is a great example I think.

    The definition of worth - "the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held." (Webster).

    Is it worth $500? Absolutely. Why? Someone paid that much for it. Could it be worth more? Yes. Less? Not at the time it was sold.

    Here's my thought process. The worth of something should be the highest value or amount of money (esteem in which is is held) a person wishes to pay for a good or service. That number can vary with person, but that variance doesn't matter - because it is the highest value. Someone paid $500 for the coin. Therefore, it is worth $500. However, someone could come along and pay $600 for it, making the worth higher. If someone offers $400, the worth doesn't drop - someone still wishes to pay $500.

    The caveat is this - the worth of an item is subject to time, just like we all are. Hopefully I didn't ramble off into incoherency here.

    The flaw in your thinking is that it is consistently worth $500 when this type of coin will be $250, 300, 400 600 etc depending on the auction and competition. A PCGS MS 65 1921 MS 65 Peace dollar will usually be in a range say of $2300-2700 so it’s fair to say that coin is worth approximately $2500. A PCGS 1945 half will almost always see around 115-135.

    In the case of MS65 1921 Peace dollars, as well as a great many other coins, I think it’s less clear than the above. Listed below are the last five MS65 1921 Peace Dollars auctioned by Heritage - each on the same day in the same sale, last month. “Worth” is a most elusive concept.

    1921 $1 MS65 PCGS $2,760
    1921 $1 MS65 NGC $5,040
    1921 $1 MS65 PCGS $2,640
    1921 $1 MS65 NGC $2,880
    1921 $1 MS65 PCGS/CAC $3,720

    Still 3 coins sold within $100 of each other, perhaps the $5000 coin was an outlier. I think if you ran the statistics of 100 sales of 1921 MS 65 Peace dollars the variance wouldn’t be large. And for more common dates less variance.

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    The MS63 Kennedy is a great example I think.

    The definition of worth - "the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held." (Webster).

    Is it worth $500? Absolutely. Why? Someone paid that much for it. Could it be worth more? Yes. Less? Not at the time it was sold.

    Here's my thought process. The worth of something should be the highest value or amount of money (esteem in which is is held) a person wishes to pay for a good or service. That number can vary with person, but that variance doesn't matter - because it is the highest value. Someone paid $500 for the coin. Therefore, it is worth $500. However, someone could come along and pay $600 for it, making the worth higher. If someone offers $400, the worth doesn't drop - someone still wishes to pay $500.

    The caveat is this - the worth of an item is subject to time, just like we all are. Hopefully I didn't ramble off into incoherency here.

    The variance in price that different buyers are willing to pay does matter, when determining “worth”.
    Why would the $500 coin later be worth $600 if someone subsequently offered that for it, but at the same time, still be worth $500 if someone was subsequently willing to pay only $400 for it?

    Once a coin has sold (whether privately or publicly via auction) its’ worth isn’t necessarily tied to its previous transaction price. Additionally, while there might be one or more buyers for a coin at a top-dollar price, its’ owner might not know who the high buyers are or how to reach them. For example, even if there are two buyers for your $500 coin at $1000, but you don’t know that or them, is it “worth” $1000?

    You're missing the point. If I owned the coin and I showed it to my next door neighbor who knows nothing about coins says "I'd only give you 50c for it" and my neighbor on the other side recognized it as silver and said "It's worth $9 to me", that means nothing about what the coin is worth. Instead it is worth the most, or very close to the most, that a knowledgeable buyer would be willing to pay. If I were to put a coin on the BST and one person offers $400 and another offers $600 the coin is obviously not worth $400 and not even $500, and may even be worth more than $600.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl said:

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    The MS63 Kennedy is a great example I think.

    The definition of worth - "the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held." (Webster).

    Is it worth $500? Absolutely. Why? Someone paid that much for it. Could it be worth more? Yes. Less? Not at the time it was sold.

    Here's my thought process. The worth of something should be the highest value or amount of money (esteem in which is is held) a person wishes to pay for a good or service. That number can vary with person, but that variance doesn't matter - because it is the highest value. Someone paid $500 for the coin. Therefore, it is worth $500. However, someone could come along and pay $600 for it, making the worth higher. If someone offers $400, the worth doesn't drop - someone still wishes to pay $500.

    The caveat is this - the worth of an item is subject to time, just like we all are. Hopefully I didn't ramble off into incoherency here.

    The variance in price that different buyers are willing to pay does matter, when determining “worth”.
    Why would the $500 coin later be worth $600 if someone subsequently offered that for it, but at the same time, still be worth $500 if someone was subsequently willing to pay only $400 for it?

    Once a coin has sold (whether privately or publicly via auction) its’ worth isn’t necessarily tied to its previous transaction price. Additionally, while there might be one or more buyers for a coin at a top-dollar price, its’ owner might not know who the high buyers are or how to reach them. For example, even if there are two buyers for your $500 coin at $1000, but you don’t know that or them, is it “worth” $1000?

    I agree fully with your premises. I tried to make those situations clear in my OP, but I think I failed to.

    I did state that if a person offered $600, the worth went up. I was only saying the variance does not matter if the highest possible price has been obtained. Once that threshold has been reached, the lower values that could be offered cease to matter, like if someone put in a $400 bid. I see there is an error in my post - once the $600 offer comes in the worth is $600, not $500. That was what I was trying to say when I talked about variance not mattering.

    I also stated that the worth is dependent on time - once the sale has been completed the worth can change - either up or down. And I would say that yes - in your $1000 situation the coin is worth $1000. Someone is willing to pay that price for the coin. The problem is finding that buyer, but that is something different than worth.

    Thanks for the clarifications.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2022 2:30AM

    @daltex said:

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    The MS63 Kennedy is a great example I think.

    The definition of worth - "the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held." (Webster).

    Is it worth $500? Absolutely. Why? Someone paid that much for it. Could it be worth more? Yes. Less? Not at the time it was sold.

    Here's my thought process. The worth of something should be the highest value or amount of money (esteem in which is is held) a person wishes to pay for a good or service. That number can vary with person, but that variance doesn't matter - because it is the highest value. Someone paid $500 for the coin. Therefore, it is worth $500. However, someone could come along and pay $600 for it, making the worth higher. If someone offers $400, the worth doesn't drop - someone still wishes to pay $500.

    The caveat is this - the worth of an item is subject to time, just like we all are. Hopefully I didn't ramble off into incoherency here.

    The variance in price that different buyers are willing to pay does matter, when determining “worth”.
    Why would the $500 coin later be worth $600 if someone subsequently offered that for it, but at the same time, still be worth $500 if someone was subsequently willing to pay only $400 for it?

    Once a coin has sold (whether privately or publicly via auction) its’ worth isn’t necessarily tied to its previous transaction price. Additionally, while there might be one or more buyers for a coin at a top-dollar price, its’ owner might not know who the high buyers are or how to reach them. For example, even if there are two buyers for your $500 coin at $1000, but you don’t know that or them, is it “worth” $1000?

    You're missing the point. If I owned the coin and I showed it to my next door neighbor who knows nothing about coins says "I'd only give you 50c for it" and my neighbor on the other side recognized it as silver and said "It's worth $9 to me", that means nothing about what the coin is worth. Instead it is worth the most, or very close to the most, that a knowledgeable buyer would be willing to pay. If I were to put a coin on the BST and one person offers $400 and another offers $600 the coin is obviously not worth $400 and not even $500, and may even be worth more than $600.

    Please give me at least an iota of credit for having a clue about how the market functions. I didn’t miss the point. I was taking issue with the idea that a previous sale price of a coin necessarily establishes a minimum value for it for the future.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @daltex said:

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    The MS63 Kennedy is a great example I think.

    The definition of worth - "the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held." (Webster).

    Is it worth $500? Absolutely. Why? Someone paid that much for it. Could it be worth more? Yes. Less? Not at the time it was sold.

    Here's my thought process. The worth of something should be the highest value or amount of money (esteem in which is is held) a person wishes to pay for a good or service. That number can vary with person, but that variance doesn't matter - because it is the highest value. Someone paid $500 for the coin. Therefore, it is worth $500. However, someone could come along and pay $600 for it, making the worth higher. If someone offers $400, the worth doesn't drop - someone still wishes to pay $500.

    The caveat is this - the worth of an item is subject to time, just like we all are. Hopefully I didn't ramble off into incoherency here.

    The variance in price that different buyers are willing to pay does matter, when determining “worth”.
    Why would the $500 coin later be worth $600 if someone subsequently offered that for it, but at the same time, still be worth $500 if someone was subsequently willing to pay only $400 for it?

    Once a coin has sold (whether privately or publicly via auction) its’ worth isn’t necessarily tied to its previous transaction price. Additionally, while there might be one or more buyers for a coin at a top-dollar price, its’ owner might not know who the high buyers are or how to reach them. For example, even if there are two buyers for your $500 coin at $1000, but you don’t know that or them, is it “worth” $1000?

    You're missing the point. If I owned the coin and I showed it to my next door neighbor who knows nothing about coins says "I'd only give you 50c for it" and my neighbor on the other side recognized it as silver and said "It's worth $9 to me", that means nothing about what the coin is worth. Instead it is worth the most, or very close to the most, that a knowledgeable buyer would be willing to pay. If I were to put a coin on the BST and one person offers $400 and another offers $600 the coin is obviously not worth $400 and not even $500, and may even be worth more than $600.

    Please give me at least an iota of credit for having a clue about how the market functions. I didn’t miss the point. I was taking issue with the idea that a previous sale price of a coin necessarily establishes a minimum value for it for the future.

    Yes. The only thing that really matters is what the next person is willing to pay for it.

    And to @daltex the definition of "Knowledgeable buyer" appears to be "one who agrees with me". Per the Kennedy coin that launched this thread, there were two buyers at $500+ and yet half of the commenters labeled both of them idiots.

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ShaunBC5 said:

    I’m looking now at sorting my coins into multiple categories like “core collection,” “sentimental,” “sellable” and they will each have different monetary values in my head.

    .

    Really, every penny I’ve ever spent on coins is a sunk cost and anything I can get back is a bonus. The enjoyment is the real value and the coins I have show how much money I had for that kind of entertainment at the time the coin was purchased.

    .
    .
    I like those two thoughts :)

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • OnastoneOnastone Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What is the value of $500 ? That is also different for each of us. Some measure that value in amount of time it takes to earn that...some value it as a comparison to what else you could purchase...or how much your rent is. Sorry dear, I spent the rent! And of course, that value is on a sliding scale with inflation...time changes all the values.

  • Downtown1974Downtown1974 Posts: 6,715 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pcgscacgold said:
    I’m surprised there are not more hobbyist or collectors here that see value in pride of ownership or value in finding that coin that has only come to auction once in the last 25 years, etc.

    I do wish there was a forum for collectors where ROI isn’t the focus of most discussions. Every coin is different (unless you collect MS70 coins, oops even those differ) so guide prices don’t mean a lot to me. Quality costs more but I still see value there.

    This is a refreshing post. There most CERTAINLY is a value to pride of ownership, but because there is no tangible value to that, people disregard it.

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It also depends how you value the winning $500 bid itself?

    As to someone earning a middle-class income it may seem different than to a billionaire in the hobby who makes a whole middle-class yearly salary daily before lunchtime.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • FrazFraz Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2022 12:57PM

    We call it mimetic desire. Hypothetically, no one wants it until more people want it. We call the result friendly competition at first. As the desire for the same things intensifies we create our rivals, and with further intensification we create our scapegoats. It stems from our need to compete for sustenance and procreation, which seems logical.
    One who is aware of his vulnerability, can talk himself out of buying from some dumb stuff.
    We call it supply and demand, pissing contests, car shows, auctions, trends, and so on.
    Edited: typo

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2022 10:29AM

    The mean price for this group is $3392
    .
    1921 $1 MS65 PCGS $2,760
    1921 $1 MS65 NGC $5,040
    1921 $1 MS65 PCGS $2,640
    1921 $1 MS65 NGC $2,880
    1921 $1 MS65 PCGS/CAC $3,720
    .
    The mean price for this group is $3408
    .
    $3600
    $2402
    $4320
    $4080
    $3360
    $3120
    $3360
    .
    .
    The mean price for both groups together is $3399

    .
    The mean price for the first group is $3392
    The mean price for the second group is $3408
    The mean price for both groups together is $3399
    .

    If my math is correct $3400 seems to be an estimated value with no other info on the specific coins. JMO
    PS half of the above 12 coins sold for more than $3240...........and half sold for less than $3240

    boston

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @daltex said:

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    The MS63 Kennedy is a great example I think.

    The definition of worth - "the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held." (Webster).

    Is it worth $500? Absolutely. Why? Someone paid that much for it. Could it be worth more? Yes. Less? Not at the time it was sold.

    Here's my thought process. The worth of something should be the highest value or amount of money (esteem in which is is held) a person wishes to pay for a good or service. That number can vary with person, but that variance doesn't matter - because it is the highest value. Someone paid $500 for the coin. Therefore, it is worth $500. However, someone could come along and pay $600 for it, making the worth higher. If someone offers $400, the worth doesn't drop - someone still wishes to pay $500.

    The caveat is this - the worth of an item is subject to time, just like we all are. Hopefully I didn't ramble off into incoherency here.

    The variance in price that different buyers are willing to pay does matter, when determining “worth”.
    Why would the $500 coin later be worth $600 if someone subsequently offered that for it, but at the same time, still be worth $500 if someone was subsequently willing to pay only $400 for it?

    Once a coin has sold (whether privately or publicly via auction) its’ worth isn’t necessarily tied to its previous transaction price. Additionally, while there might be one or more buyers for a coin at a top-dollar price, its’ owner might not know who the high buyers are or how to reach them. For example, even if there are two buyers for your $500 coin at $1000, but you don’t know that or them, is it “worth” $1000?

    You're missing the point. If I owned the coin and I showed it to my next door neighbor who knows nothing about coins says "I'd only give you 50c for it" and my neighbor on the other side recognized it as silver and said "It's worth $9 to me", that means nothing about what the coin is worth. Instead it is worth the most, or very close to the most, that a knowledgeable buyer would be willing to pay. If I were to put a coin on the BST and one person offers $400 and another offers $600 the coin is obviously not worth $400 and not even $500, and may even be worth more than $600.

    Please give me at least an iota of credit for having a clue about how the market functions. I didn’t miss the point. I was taking issue with the idea that a previous sale price of a coin necessarily establishes a minimum value for it for the future.

    Ah, well in that case I completely misunderstood your post. I agree with you strongly and think that dealers who refuse to sell a coin for what it's "worth" because they paid more than that for it are beyond foolish. This is in al fields, not just coins, but we don't see a gas station attempting to sell for $4.59 because that is what it paid when all the other nearby stations are asking $3.99.

  • ms71ms71 Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's a fool's errand to try and pin an exact "worth" to any particular coin. All recent results can give you are guidelines. As to the $500 auction realization, who knows exactly what the coin was "worth" to the buyer? At least $500, obviously. But he may well have been willing to pay more, perhaps a lot more. All the auction result really tells you is exactly what the coin was worth to the underbidder.

    Successful BST transactions: EagleEye, Christos, Proofmorgan,
    Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins

    Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.

    My mind reader refuses to charge me....
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,681 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great thread here.

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Coins are a speculative investment guided by personal taste and a market that tends to fluctuate over time. I've always thought that is the reason why prices are listed in something called a Guide. Those lists are intended to give buyers a general idea of what other collectors have been willing to pay in the (recent) past. I tend to collect in areas where there is no guide, only what I see happening over time for similar items. That is a problem compounded by the fact that much of what I buy is raw.

    In the case of the 1921 Peace Dollar there are more than enough sales records for anyone to have an idea of what they might expect to pay, the personal choice aspect then comes into play. With the Kennedy Half-Dollar I think we need to at least consider that a bidder/buyer has an idea of what they are looking at and understand that it isn't "common" or "generic" in its appearance. What amuses me about that coin is that in the original thread there is one member who has already expressed an interest as a buyer at approximately the same price as paid for the coin, yet others wonder "IF" the owner might be able to sell it and that he is buried.

    The bottom line for me is that if you don't understand a market it probably isn't wise to criticize those who do, simply because you don't like something.

  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    What's an MS65 "worth"? ;)

    I feel like many people, myself included at times, tend to anchor value at TPG grades and commodify the coins themselves. Sometimes that works fine, particularly with modern coins and widgets. I don't intend to suggest people are buying the holder but by trying to pin an exact price on any coin in a specific grade essential negates any positive/negative eye appeal and makes the TPGs infallible.

    I won't speak for others but this has been a hard lesson for me as I attempt to buy PQ coins for the lowest price I can find listed on eBay. Not much success! I've had to learn to either increase my budget or buy lesser coins. And so Mark is right (as is so often the case) - sure there are average prices but when looking at most individual coins, there is no right price.

    Really good thread!

  • Glen2022Glen2022 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭

    Ah, well in that case I completely misunderstood your post. I agree with you strongly and think that dealers who refuse to sell a coin for what it's "worth" because they paid more than that for it are beyond foolish. This is in al fields, not just coins, but we don't see a gas station attempting to sell for $4.59 because that is what it paid when all the other nearby stations are asking $3.99.

    I beg to differ with you. Often a gas station near a freeway, particularly and interstate, will sell gas for $.50 per gallon more than one a mile from the interstate.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    And to @daltex the definition of "Knowledgeable buyer" appears to be "one who agrees with me". Per the Kennedy coin that launched this thread, there were two buyers at $500+ and yet half of the commenters labeled both of them idiots.

    A regularly expressed opinion on this forum: "I wouldn't pay $XXX for the coin. If you did, you overpaid."

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,850 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2022 8:43AM

    @Glen2022 said:

    Ah, well in that case I completely misunderstood your post. I agree with you strongly and think that dealers who refuse to sell a coin for what it's "worth" because they paid more than that for it are beyond foolish. This is in al fields, not just coins, but we don't see a gas station attempting to sell for $4.59 because that is what it paid when all the other nearby stations are asking $3.99.

    I beg to differ with you. Often a gas station near a freeway, particularly and interstate, will sell gas for $.50 per gallon more than one a mile from the interstate.

    You do know that a prime location might well have higher costs associated with it. I can open a coin store in an empty house in a residential neighborhood pretty cheaply. If I want to be in the brand new mall by the interstate, my rent is going to be quite high.

    But even if it is an intentionally higher price, you are making the opposite point of the post you responded to. The post you responded to was referring to selling the gas for more than competitors because they PAID MORE not because they paid the same and jacked up the price.

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