I expected a 66 minimum and figured it had a real good shot at a 67. A MS65 grade is straight up nonsense. To put it bluntly, I'm kind of livid I waited 5 months to get a 65 on this coin.
It's being cracked as soon as it's back in hand.
WTF a 65!!??!!
I did guess 66 before seeing the reveal and after reading a lot of the comments I was thinking it likely got a 67.
I read somewhere recently that someone was surprised with lower than expected grades from NGC.
I wonder if the services are tightening things up after years and years of looseness.
@Maywood said: @Eldorado9 said: Unless the photo is not accurate in some significant way, that does not look like a current 65 Walker to me.
Then the question bears asking: Is the image in the OP an edited version of a TrueView or an image taken by the owner?? I would prefer to see an image of the TrueView for a better analysis. Opening the OP image in a different window to view a larger version it doesn't look as perfect, showing central strike weakness. Also, my experience has shown that I should trust the graders at PCGS(all 3-4 of them who assessed this coin in-hand) over a forum member viewing images of the coin, even if that might be the owner who considers himself an above average grader. Ownership skews perception no matter what we each think.
This isn't to say the coin wouldn't grade differently or higher if submitted again at any service level, but what would that prove?? Remember, this is a 1942 "P" mint coin, if it were a different date/mm combination it might be viewed differently by the PCGS graders.
Those pics are trueviews. I just used the coinfacts templated images so the cert wouldn't be in there.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@DelawareDoons@MFeld Well, I am eating crow...and Mr. Feld called it....Here are two of my coins. The first one is MS67, and the second is MS67+ Just for comparison purposes. I could see how your coin might get a 66....but not a 65...Seems like highway robbery right there. Perhaps the luster is dead? No idea.
@Eldorado9 said: @DelawareDoons@MFeld Well, I am eating crow...and Mr. Feld called it....Here are two of my coins. The first one is MS67, and the second is MS67+ Just for comparison purposes. I could see how your coin might get a 66....but not a 65...Seems like highway robbery right there. Perhaps the luster is dead? No idea.
No crow is being served. If you see or make enough grade guesses, there are bound to be some shockers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I expected a 66 minimum and figured it had a real good shot at a 67. A MS65 grade is straight up nonsense. To put it bluntly, I'm kind of livid I waited 5 months to get a 65 on this coin.
It's being cracked as soon as it's back in hand.
WTF a 65!!??!!
I did guess 66 before seeing the reveal and after reading a lot of the comments I was thinking it likely got a 67.
I read somewhere recently that someone was surprised with lower than expected grades from NGC.
I wonder if the services are tightening things up after years and years of looseness.
No need to consider a conclusion like that, based on a small sample size. The major grading companies grade enough coins daily, such that even if they're extremely accurate, they will under-grade and over-grade a lot of coins every day. And that says nothing about whether they're tightening or loosening up.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don’t know I like it in a 66 holder maybe 66+ even but a 65 is a bit low is this starting all over again. A one point hit on all coins. I remember buy MS65 holders cracking them out and getting one to two points upside on old holders. Need to keep a look out for new holders now again, sorry about your coin.
I expected a 66 minimum and figured it had a real good shot at a 67. A MS65 grade is straight up nonsense. To put it bluntly, I'm kind of livid I waited 5 months to get a 65 on this coin.
It's being cracked as soon as it's back in hand.
I would have guessed MS67. MS65 does not seem right.
However, a tiny patch of hairlines or friction somewhere could cause a drop in grade by two points.
I would want to see the coin in person, and view it from EVERY angle of light before making a final conclusion.
There are about a dozen or so collectors/dealers here who I unequivocally trust with their grading skills. DelewareDoons is one of them.
My only hesitation with his Walker is perhaps the strike?
Otherwise, looks MS66 or better from here.
If it makes you feel any better, here's my MS62. Yeah, I don't know. I've shown it to several people and they all figured it to be MS66 or so, possibly 65. Maybe the graders thought they saw rub. I don't see it.
The coin is all there on the obverse, except for a minor hit on the jaw and neck, but I see what appears to be slight wear on the eagle's breast. Flame away.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@logger7 said:
MS66 is not a money grade; a grading pro like you would not have sent it in unless it was going to come back as MS67 or higher.
Not so. He previously posted “I expected a 66 minimum and figured it had a real good shot at a 67.”
I bought a group of nice gemmy Walkers a few years ago raw, sent in to NGC. I did get some MS66 grades that cac agreed with and the hammer on ebay was still only around $125.
@logger7 said:
MS66 is not a money grade; a grading pro like you would not have sent it in unless it was going to come back as MS67 or higher.
Average joes like me don't tend to get anything above 63/64 money for raw coins on ebay and elsewhere. The value is there on getting even a 65 graded for me, as annoying as that is.
@SanctionII said:
Here is the Trueview of the 1941 P MS65 I mentioned previously.
Everyone seems to focus on Ms. Liberty on the obverse, but the Sun being raised on the lower left receives just as many contact marks. So minor chatter on the Sun and in the left obverse fields can limit the grade more than any roll friction / stacking marks on Ms. Liberty's head, left breast, and hip.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
@logger7 said:
MS66 is not a money grade; a grading pro like you would not have sent it in unless it was going to come back as MS67 or higher.
Average joes like me don't tend to get anything above 63/64 money for raw coins on ebay and elsewhere. The value is there on getting even a 65 graded for me, as annoying as that is.
The economics are not exactly in favor of dealers or others looking to stay ahead of the game on submissions. On a coin like this you may need to pay $75 or more for the raw coin; then grading/shipping etc. can easily run $30. Then a cac submission too adds $15, now even more than that. How can you make money with those economics?
@logger7 said:
MS66 is not a money grade; a grading pro like you would not have sent it in unless it was going to come back as MS67 or higher.
Average joes like me don't tend to get anything above 63/64 money for raw coins on ebay and elsewhere. The value is there on getting even a 65 graded for me, as annoying as that is.
The economics are not exactly in favor of dealers or others looking to stay ahead of the game on submissions. On a coin like this you may need to pay $75 or more for the raw coin; then grading/shipping etc. can easily run $30. Then a cac submission too adds $15, now even more than that. How can you make money with those economics?
I paid $45 for it. Selling it raw, I might get $75 for a common date like this. Given I thought it was a shot 67, it was worth subbing anyway.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@logger7 said:
MS66 is not a money grade; a grading pro like you would not have sent it in unless it was going to come back as MS67 or higher.
Average joes like me don't tend to get anything above 63/64 money for raw coins on ebay and elsewhere. The value is there on getting even a 65 graded for me, as annoying as that is.
The economics are not exactly in favor of dealers or others looking to stay ahead of the game on submissions. On a coin like this you may need to pay $75 or more for the raw coin; then grading/shipping etc. can easily run $30. Then a cac submission too adds $15, now even more than that. How can you make money with those economics?
How? You don’t pay $75 or more for the ungraded coin, unless you expect it to grade higher than 66.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Based on the video, looks like you got hosed. Given the coin is totally blast white it may have been dipped, but the full mint bloom appears to still be there.
Maybe the "cabinet friction" on the breast brought it down a grade or so, but I feel it is defintely worthy of a 67. It is as gorgeous as any of the 6 or so 67+'s on Coinfacts. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
In my completely unprofessional opinion, that coin is a heck of a gold sticker candidate. Not quite sure what the graders had for lunch that made that 65 pop out.
Fwiw, I graded it 64 from the pic. I thought I could see some friction or rub on the eagle’s breast, and liberty’s breast and leg. Normally, when I get a coin back from the graders, I can see what they see, even if I didn’t see it originally. Recently, however, and especially on economy submissions, I have noticed a greater variance between my grade and the pros (my 63= pc65, my 67= pc 65, etc). I have attributed it to newer graders on Econ coins. As the op disagrees with the grade having received the coin back, I’ll assume the graders just got it wrong. It happens!
@TPRC said:
Fwiw, I graded it 64 from the pic. I thought I could see some friction or rub on the eagle’s breast, and liberty’s breast and leg. Normally, when I get a coin back from the graders, I can see what they see, even if I didn’t see it originally. Recently, however, and especially on economy submissions, I have noticed a greater variance between my grade and the pros (my 63= pc65, my 67= pc 65, etc). I have attributed it to newer graders on Econ coins. As the op disagrees with the grade having received the coin back, I’ll assume the graders just got it wrong. It happens!
With no disrespect, whatsoever, to the grading skills of the OP - and I'd say this, no matter whose coin it was or what they thought it should grade - I wouldn't "assume that the graders just got it wrong". I would, however, consider the possibility.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My initial thought was it had some rub on the breast feathers AU58+ Gold CAC for the great Luster. If a weak strike or cabinet friction then MS64+ Green CAC.
@logger7 said:
MS66 is not a money grade; a grading pro like you would not have sent it in unless it was going to come back as MS67 or higher.
Average joes like me don't tend to get anything above 63/64 money for raw coins on ebay and elsewhere. The value is there on getting even a 65 graded for me, as annoying as that is.
The economics are not exactly in favor of dealers or others looking to stay ahead of the game on submissions. On a coin like this you may need to pay $75 or more for the raw coin; then grading/shipping etc. can easily run $30. Then a cac submission too adds $15, now even more than that. How can you make money with those economics?
Comments
That’s crazy. Here’s my 67 for comparison:
My YouTube Channel
@ashland Your coin is hammered! Struck up by comparison, but yes it has more hits. The host coin is cleaner in my opinion.
Guess I can jump in with a 66 then.
Here is the Trueview of the 1941 P MS65 I mentioned previously.
WTF a 65!!??!!
I did guess 66 before seeing the reveal and after reading a lot of the comments I was thinking it likely got a 67.
I read somewhere recently that someone was surprised with lower than expected grades from NGC.
I wonder if the services are tightening things up after years and years of looseness.
Those pics are trueviews. I just used the coinfacts templated images so the cert wouldn't be in there.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@DelawareDoons @MFeld Well, I am eating crow...and Mr. Feld called it....Here are two of my coins. The first one is MS67, and the second is MS67+ Just for comparison purposes. I could see how your coin might get a 66....but not a 65...Seems like highway robbery right there. Perhaps the luster is dead? No idea.
No crow is being served. If you see or make enough grade guesses, there are bound to be some shockers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would have expected a slightly strong strike on a 67, I would have guessed 66. Robbed on the 65.
No need to consider a conclusion like that, based on a small sample size. The major grading companies grade enough coins daily, such that even if they're extremely accurate, they will under-grade and over-grade a lot of coins every day. And that says nothing about whether they're tightening or loosening up.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I was a bit harsh at 64. The weak strike preludes GEM in my opinion....guess not.
bob
I would have never guessed 65. Looks 67 to me! Nearly flawless surfaces and no dings on the devices that distract my eye.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
My V Nickel Registry Set - https://pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/71874
I don’t know I like it in a 66 holder maybe 66+ even but a 65 is a bit low is this starting all over again. A one point hit on all coins. I remember buy MS65 holders cracking them out and getting one to two points upside on old holders. Need to keep a look out for new holders now again, sorry about your coin.
Hoard the keys.
I would have guessed MS67. MS65 does not seem right.
However, a tiny patch of hairlines or friction somewhere could cause a drop in grade by two points.
I would want to see the coin in person, and view it from EVERY angle of light before making a final conclusion.
There are about a dozen or so collectors/dealers here who I unequivocally trust with their grading skills. DelewareDoons is one of them.
My only hesitation with his Walker is perhaps the strike?
Otherwise, looks MS66 or better from here.
If it makes you feel any better, here's my MS62. Yeah, I don't know. I've shown it to several people and they all figured it to be MS66 or so, possibly 65. Maybe the graders thought they saw rub. I don't see it.
So how much does PCGS consider strike when grading?
The coin is all there on the obverse, except for a minor hit on the jaw and neck, but I see what appears to be slight wear on the eagle's breast. Flame away.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Nice , i was > @AUandAG said:
you were not, however @coinbuf is another story
Well, more gold beans on a PCGS holder could indicate a more conservative grading approach..
MS66 is not a money grade; a grading pro like you would not have sent it in unless it was going to come back as MS67 or higher.
Not so. He previously posted “I expected a 66 minimum and figured it had a real good shot at a 67.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I bought a group of nice gemmy Walkers a few years ago raw, sent in to NGC. I did get some MS66 grades that cac agreed with and the hammer on ebay was still only around $125.
Average joes like me don't tend to get anything above 63/64 money for raw coins on ebay and elsewhere. The value is there on getting even a 65 graded for me, as annoying as that is.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Everyone seems to focus on Ms. Liberty on the obverse, but the Sun being raised on the lower left receives just as many contact marks. So minor chatter on the Sun and in the left obverse fields can limit the grade more than any roll friction / stacking marks on Ms. Liberty's head, left breast, and hip.
The economics are not exactly in favor of dealers or others looking to stay ahead of the game on submissions. On a coin like this you may need to pay $75 or more for the raw coin; then grading/shipping etc. can easily run $30. Then a cac submission too adds $15, now even more than that. How can you make money with those economics?
My buddy who has this at the moment was kind enough to take a video.
https://i.imgur.com/RMtvOmF.mp4
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I paid $45 for it. Selling it raw, I might get $75 for a common date like this. Given I thought it was a shot 67, it was worth subbing anyway.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
How? You don’t pay $75 or more for the ungraded coin, unless you expect it to grade higher than 66.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Based on the video, looks like you got hosed. Given the coin is totally blast white it may have been dipped, but the full mint bloom appears to still be there.
Maybe the "cabinet friction" on the breast brought it down a grade or so, but I feel it is defintely worthy of a 67. It is as gorgeous as any of the 6 or so 67+'s on Coinfacts. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
If I recall correctly, 15% strike. There is a bar chart somewhere but this should get the idea across.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
In my completely unprofessional opinion, that coin is a heck of a gold sticker candidate. Not quite sure what the graders had for lunch that made that 65 pop out.
Coin Photography
Fwiw, I graded it 64 from the pic. I thought I could see some friction or rub on the eagle’s breast, and liberty’s breast and leg. Normally, when I get a coin back from the graders, I can see what they see, even if I didn’t see it originally. Recently, however, and especially on economy submissions, I have noticed a greater variance between my grade and the pros (my 63= pc65, my 67= pc 65, etc). I have attributed it to newer graders on Econ coins. As the op disagrees with the grade having received the coin back, I’ll assume the graders just got it wrong. It happens!
Tom
With no disrespect, whatsoever, to the grading skills of the OP - and I'd say this, no matter whose coin it was or what they thought it should grade - I wouldn't "assume that the graders just got it wrong". I would, however, consider the possibility.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There is also the possibility, even the likelihood, that they got it right.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
My initial thought was it had some rub on the breast feathers AU58+ Gold CAC for the great Luster. If a weak strike or cabinet friction then MS64+ Green CAC.
A few very small hits in the right field, otherwise nearly flawless (and beautiful!)… 67
Indeed. Better to just buy it already slabbed.
My YouTube Channel
Is it for sale?
Here’s an old 65 I agree with the grade, even today
Maybe this can help with comparisons…
My YouTube Channel
Perhaps there is just enough chatter on the leg to warrant a grade less than MS67?
Posibly if you pay him 67 money. 😉
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
SOLD!
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
For comparison purposes:
My 66:
My 67:
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
That grade does not fit...
You must resubmit!!