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GC: My max bid of $325 wasn't enough to win this colorful 1964 Kennedy Half PCGS MS63

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  • mtn_scoutmtn_scout Posts: 101 ✭✭✭

    I don't know, something seems fishy about it. The coin clearly has many rim dents, scratches (Kennedy's hair, neck, and cheek), and potential defective planchet with holes in the fields, jaw, nose, and neck (don't look like circulation gouges to me). It is well-circulated and highly unlikely to be out of a mint set (planchet defectives alone would rule it out). The only way I know that isn't pure AT that causes cracking like that is mint set toning. If this was mint set toning someone decided (say an heir) that they would open the cellophane set and spend the money. Conceivable for sure but I would have a hard time believing that it circulated for as long as it did with that toning. Plenty of non-coin people would have liked it and kept it. What I find much more conceivable is someone saw all the defects and decided to try and camouflage them or decided to do a science experiment. Given the amount of coins graders see in a day and knowing that cracked, toned coins can come out of 40 and 50s mint sets I think it got a pass without a more detailed look. Nothing wrong with spending the money it went for knowing that there is a decent probability it is AT, if one enjoys it. If someone spent that money thinking that it was slabbed so it was safe, they fell into a belief that coin doctors bank on.

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mtn_scout, the coin almost certainly came from being long term in a bag where it was in contact with the fabric or else it was an "end roll" coin for a long time.

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 7,169 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The two sets of photos are vastly different. Which one is “truer?”

    Seated Half Society member #38
    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mtn_scout said:
    Given the amount of coins graders see in a day and knowing that cracked, toned coins can come out of 40 and 50s mint sets I think it got a pass without a more detailed look.

    Even assuming the coin got a pass (I wouldn't, but that's just me), this coin didn't come out of a "40 and 50s" mint set.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:

    @lilolme said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @1madman said:

    @U1chicago said:
    I was the under bidder and lost by less than a full increment (someone guessed better than me at the end).

    Lucky you didn’t get buried in this coin. Graded accurately and way too low to be worth this kind of money. I would say you’re the actual winner of the auction.

    I’d be happy to buy one for less but no one is offering anything. I’ve tried want to buy posts and those have gone mostly unanswered. The few times I’ve seen something as nice as this Kennedy, the seller wants even more.

    I have a few toned coins mostly bought years ago but I don't actively seek them out. I have been hearing or reading for years now how the toned market is over-priced. However, they just keep going and some increasing. Is it a bubble that is going to burst? Possibly and could be next up, but so far it is not giving any indication of it.

    It could burst as can any market. The coins with great color and eye appeal will always be desired by enough collectors to keep the market viable. The coins with just a little color or neutral color that have seen a recent bump will likely be the first to crater.

    It might be just as accurate to say “The color-free coins that have seen a recent bump will likely be the first to crater.”

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2022 5:32PM

    @MFeld said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @lilolme said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @1madman said:

    @U1chicago said:
    I was the under bidder and lost by less than a full increment (someone guessed better than me at the end).

    Lucky you didn’t get buried in this coin. Graded accurately and way too low to be worth this kind of money. I would say you’re the actual winner of the auction.

    I’d be happy to buy one for less but no one is offering anything. I’ve tried want to buy posts and those have gone mostly unanswered. The few times I’ve seen something as nice as this Kennedy, the seller wants even more.

    I have a few toned coins mostly bought years ago but I don't actively seek them out. I have been hearing or reading for years now how the toned market is over-priced. However, they just keep going and some increasing. Is it a bubble that is going to burst? Possibly and could be next up, but so far it is not giving any indication of it.

    It could burst as can any market. The coins with great color and eye appeal will always be desired by enough collectors to keep the market viable. The coins with just a little color or neutral color that have seen a recent bump will likely be the first to crater.

    It might be just as accurate to say “The color-free coins that have seen a recent bump will likely be the first to crater.”

    I wasn't taking about blast white though. I specifically meant coins with a hint of color or what most would consider neutral.

    Here is an example of something that would have a bigger premium now vs several years ago:

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:

    @MFeld said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @lilolme said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @1madman said:

    @U1chicago said:
    I was the under bidder and lost by less than a full increment (someone guessed better than me at the end).

    Lucky you didn’t get buried in this coin. Graded accurately and way too low to be worth this kind of money. I would say you’re the actual winner of the auction.

    I’d be happy to buy one for less but no one is offering anything. I’ve tried want to buy posts and those have gone mostly unanswered. The few times I’ve seen something as nice as this Kennedy, the seller wants even more.

    I have a few toned coins mostly bought years ago but I don't actively seek them out. I have been hearing or reading for years now how the toned market is over-priced. However, they just keep going and some increasing. Is it a bubble that is going to burst? Possibly and could be next up, but so far it is not giving any indication of it.

    It could burst as can any market. The coins with great color and eye appeal will always be desired by enough collectors to keep the market viable. The coins with just a little color or neutral color that have seen a recent bump will likely be the first to crater.

    It might be just as accurate to say “The color-free coins that have seen a recent bump will likely be the first to crater.”

    I wasn't taking about blast white though. I specifically meant coins with a hint of color or what most would consider neutral.

    Here is an example of something that would have a bigger premium now vs several years ago:

    I don’t know how large of a premium that coin carries, but I sure like it!

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @MFeld said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @lilolme said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @1madman said:

    @U1chicago said:
    I was the under bidder and lost by less than a full increment (someone guessed better than me at the end).

    Lucky you didn’t get buried in this coin. Graded accurately and way too low to be worth this kind of money. I would say you’re the actual winner of the auction.

    I’d be happy to buy one for less but no one is offering anything. I’ve tried want to buy posts and those have gone mostly unanswered. The few times I’ve seen something as nice as this Kennedy, the seller wants even more.

    I have a few toned coins mostly bought years ago but I don't actively seek them out. I have been hearing or reading for years now how the toned market is over-priced. However, they just keep going and some increasing. Is it a bubble that is going to burst? Possibly and could be next up, but so far it is not giving any indication of it.

    It could burst as can any market. The coins with great color and eye appeal will always be desired by enough collectors to keep the market viable. The coins with just a little color or neutral color that have seen a recent bump will likely be the first to crater.

    It might be just as accurate to say “The color-free coins that have seen a recent bump will likely be the first to crater.”

    I wasn't taking about blast white though. I specifically meant coins with a hint of color or what most would consider neutral.

    Here is an example of something that would have a bigger premium now vs several years ago:

    I don’t know how large of a premium that coin carries, but I sure like it!

    It’s a perfectly nice coin that used to sell for around guide/sheet or a small premium over that. Lately I’ve seen them go for more than that. I’d expect a coin like that to drop its premium quicker than a high end full coverage toner.

  • mtn_scoutmtn_scout Posts: 101 ✭✭✭

    @Maywood said:
    @mtn_scout, the coin almost certainly came from being long term in a bag where it was in contact with the fabric or else it was an "end roll" coin for a long time.

    The bag explanation would explain the color but not the cracking. The only source of natural cracking that I know of happens on some mint sets of the 40s and 50s (maybe early 60s not sure) This coin does not fit that into that category of cracking. Looking at the close up of the true view on the pcgs site shows a LOT of imperfections.

  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Find one in the wild like that for price guide. It's worth a significant premium.

    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Maywood said:
    Some of the comments strike me as odd. This is exactly the kind of coin that, if shown as something just returned from PCGS, would have members stating how lovely it is and congratulating the submitter. My hunch is that the response to the negative is due to the price.

    Thy couldn't afford it and I'm in the same boat.

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 889 ✭✭✭✭

    @tcollects said:
    that's nuts

    @U1chicago said:
    I was the under bidder and lost by less than a full increment (someone guessed better than me at the end).

    Here’s a better buy a MS 67 for $640.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:

    @tcollects said:
    that's nuts

    @U1chicago said:
    I was the under bidder and lost by less than a full increment (someone guessed better than me at the end).

    Here’s a better buy a MS 67 for $640.

    The color isn't close to the MS 63. I'd skip this coin every time regardless of grade (I'd buy it if it was priced low enough to resell but not for my collection).

  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    )

    @Goldbully said:
    Bidder 13 of 13 took her at the end.0

    Hammer w/ BP: $508.49

    She is a stunner.





    https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1221012/1964-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-PCGS-MS-63-Toned

    In my photo editor there is an auto-level adjustment that can be made to photos if the operator doesn;t have the settings set accurately on his camera with the existing lighting used. I use it all the time only if it makes adjustments to the coin the way I see it is hand. So....I'll take coins posted in a thread to see what the AUTO-LEVEL will do to those coins. Most of the time, minor adjustments occur with what i test, to see what happens. I have learned from my own faults and experiences, coins that turn dark, the brightness and contrast have been messed with. So....without further ado, here are the adjustments. You'll need to jump back and forth to compare the original photos with the adJusted AUTO-LEVEL photos I posted.

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @leothelyon said:
    )

    @Goldbully said:
    Bidder 13 of 13 took her at the end.0

    Hammer w/ BP: $508.49

    She is a stunner.





    https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1221012/1964-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-PCGS-MS-63-Toned

    In my photo editor there is an auto-level adjustment that can be made to photos if the operator doesn;t have the settings set accurately on his camera with the existing lighting used. I use it all the time only if it makes adjustments to the coin the way I see it is hand. So....I'll take coins posted in a thread to see what the AUTO-LEVEL will do to those coins. Most of the time, minor adjustments occur with what i test, to see what happens. I have learned from my own faults and experiences, coins that turn dark, the brightness and contrast have been messed with. So....without further ado, here are the adjustments. You'll need to jump back and forth to compare the original photos with the adJusted AUTO-LEVEL photos I posted.

    Leo

    It auto-adjusted but on my screen the holder and tag are now the wrong color.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
    .
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 889 ✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:

    @Walkerlover said:

    @tcollects said:
    that's nuts

    @U1chicago said:
    I was the under bidder and lost by less than a full increment (someone guessed better than me at the end).

    Here’s a better buy a MS 67 for $640.

    The color isn't close to the MS 63. I'd skip this coin every time regardless of grade (I'd buy it if it was priced low enough to resell but not for my collection).

    Fair enough but it is at least a MS 67 with a little color and great luster not a lowly 63 which I would never ever pay $500.

  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lilolme said:

    @leothelyon said:
    )

    @Goldbully said:
    Bidder 13 of 13 took her at the end.0

    Hammer w/ BP: $508.49

    She is a stunner.





    https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1221012/1964-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-PCGS-MS-63-Toned

    In my photo editor there is an auto-level adjustment that can be made to photos if the operator doesn;t have the settings set accurately on his camera with the existing lighting used. I use it all the time only if it makes adjustments to the coin the way I see it is hand. So....I'll take coins posted in a thread to see what the AUTO-LEVEL will do to those coins. Most of the time, minor adjustments occur with what i test, to see what happens. I have learned from my own faults and experiences, coins that turn dark, the brightness and contrast have been messed with. So....without further ado, here are the adjustments. You'll need to jump back and forth to compare the original photos with the adJusted AUTO-LEVEL photos I posted.

    Leo

    It auto-adjusted but on my screen the holder and tag are now the wrong color.

    Yeah, the protrayal of photos the viewer sees will also have to do with the viewer's settings for whatever device used,

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2022 8:30PM

    @Walkerlover said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @Walkerlover said:

    @tcollects said:
    that's nuts

    @U1chicago said:
    I was the under bidder and lost by less than a full increment (someone guessed better than me at the end).

    Here’s a better buy a MS 67 for $640.

    The color isn't close to the MS 63. I'd skip this coin every time regardless of grade (I'd buy it if it was priced low enough to resell but not for my collection).

    Fair enough but it is at least a MS 67 with a little color and great luster not a lowly 63 which I would never ever pay $500.

    And that’s where we differ. The grade means little to me if the color isn’t there. I realize the higher grade has a higher guide value; I’m perfectly fine with the price it brought at auction but I’d only be interested if it went for enough under guide to resell since it wouldn’t fit in my collection.

  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lilolme said:

    @leothelyon said:
    )

    @Goldbully said:
    Bidder 13 of 13 took her at the end.0

    Hammer w/ BP: $508.49

    She is a stunner.





    https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1221012/1964-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-PCGS-MS-63-Toned

    In my photo editor there is an auto-level adjustment that can be made to photos if the operator doesn;t have the settings set accurately on his camera with the existing lighting used. I use it all the time only if it makes adjustments to the coin the way I see it is hand. So....I'll take coins posted in a thread to see what the AUTO-LEVEL will do to those coins. Most of the time, minor adjustments occur with what i test, to see what happens. I have learned from my own faults and experiences, coins that turn dark, the brightness and contrast have been messed with. So....without further ado, here are the adjustments. You'll need to jump back and forth to compare the original photos with the adJusted AUTO-LEVEL photos I posted.

    Leo

    It auto-adjusted but on my screen the holder and tag are now the wrong color.

    I thought the label was a bit light, the GC pic. I hit the Auto-level in my photo editor on both photos, GC and TreView and one become much darker than the other.

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So here are the three slabs.
    Left the adjusted photo, Center the one from pcgs museum of holders, Right GC.

    On my screen:
    The Left adjusted still appears off with the label to blue (dark) and almost missing the white at bottom of label (Note: the slab looks a little bit like the older slabs with the purple hue). So does this mean the coin is to dark?

    The Right GC the label also appears off and the blue to light. So does this mean the coin is to light?

    This might imply that the TV is the closest to correct color on the coin since it is a little darker than the GC.
    Or not?

    I am guessing it looks something between the TV and GC. If GC photos were that much off I think they might have many more unhappy buyers and correct it.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
    .
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can not say why the GC photo turned darker than the TV photo. I've only suggested the brightness and contrast may have been messed which can easily be done with a photo editor. There is less change to the TV which suggests their depiction of the coin is more accurate

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @Walkerlover said:

    @tcollects said:
    that's nuts

    @U1chicago said:
    I was the under bidder and lost by less than a full increment (someone guessed better than me at the end).

    Here’s a better buy a MS 67 for $640.

    The color isn't close to the MS 63. I'd skip this coin every time regardless of grade (I'd buy it if it was priced low enough to resell but not for my collection).

    Fair enough but it is at least a MS 67 with a little color and great luster not a lowly 63 which I would never ever pay $500.

    I wouldn't pay $500 for either one. However, that doesn't mean they aren't worth $500. My (your) biases are purely subjective.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think this color is worthy of a premium:

  • raysrays Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭

    $500 for that coin is reasonable. If I were purchasing such a coin, the grade assigned by PCGS is not the determinant of value.

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If I were considering a serious run at this coin, or any coin that has attributes that make it likely to go for multiples of its technical grade value, I'd definitely take @ianrussell up on his offer to view in hand.

  • WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 889 ✭✭✭✭

    @rays said:
    $500 for that coin is reasonable. If I were purchasing such a coin, the grade assigned by PCGS is not the determinant of value.

    It should be a strong component along with the interesting color.

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Older thread alert

    I was the underbidder again on this coin. It was sitting at 297 and I was hopeful it would sell for less this time. But it was not meant to be; my bid of 477.77 was not enough as someone else went at least an increment higher to take it at 487.77 (548.74 with the fee). So a year and three months later, the coin ended up bringing about $40 more. I wonder if it shows up again within a year.

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,911 ✭✭✭✭✭


    For about the same price, I picked up this same date PCGS-MS67 Kennedy at the Legend auction last week.

    Really a cool colorful Kennedy in hand. Pics don’t do it justice.

    An “Everest” sticker as well - anyone know what the asking price on this coin was originally by Mr. Tomaska? If memory serves me right, it was “strong”.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A little too much eggnog probably amped up the desirability of that Kennedy.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2023 6:13AM

    @wondercoin said:

    For about the same price, I picked up this same date PCGS-MS67 Kennedy at the Legend auction last week.

    Really a cool colorful Kennedy in hand. Pics don’t do it justice.

    An “Everest” sticker as well - anyone know what the asking price on this coin was originally by Mr. Tomaska? If memory serves me right, it was “strong”.

    Wondercoin

    That looks fairly nice. I’ve been skeptical of Legend photos lately after picking up a few coins where the photo turned out to be too enhanced (coin looked worse in hand).

    As far as Tonaska’s price, I’m certain it was strong (his prices always are).

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If I am going to pay crazy money for color, I want it to look like this.

    My "crazy money" was that I paid the MS-64 price for a piece that was in an MS-63 holder. At the time, that was about $50.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    U1- Thanks re Legend. Good to know.

    If anyone happened to keep a copy of the ads a few years ago from R&I’s “Everest” selections, I’d love to read them on the 1964-P and 1964-D 50C MS67. I happened to acquire both the P&D 1964 MS67 with very nice color over the past 60 days unexpectedly.

    Regarding nice color Kennedy 50C paying dividends - I was at the Long Beach show (20-25 years ago) when the 1964-D came “walking up” to the dealer’s table priced at a silly $300 or $400 as an MS66. Not too long ago, it fetched around $25,000.00 as an upgraded MS68.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Took a gamble on this crazy example and NGC gave her a 65:

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    People are more comfortable with pricing when there is a “guide”, even if that pricing sometimes seems completely nonsensical.
    There are condition guides so everyone quotes them. Since there is no toning guide many collectors are lost, even when the toning creates a coin far rarer than the condition would indicate. And that’s the opportunity.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 6,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder if the new GreatPhoto's will increase the number of toners with sales prices that pop multiples above price guides at GreatCollections?

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pat- Love the P-01.

    Agree on the 66/68.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    I wonder if the new GreatPhoto's will increase the number of toners with sales prices that pop multiples above price guides at GreatCollections?

    There are already many example that bring well above guides. So the photos could further help. The only caution would be if the photos become better than the in hand look. Then you could have a correction where those bidding high start lowering their bids if they are burned.

  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That’s nuttier than squirrel 💩

  • bsshog40bsshog40 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭✭✭

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