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What makes an 19th century Proof coin a Proof 58?

DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 17, 2022 8:44PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Is it something beyond wear? Cleaning or cabinet friction? I'm asking this question to learn something.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,047 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What type of 18th century Proof coins are you asking about?
    To answer your question about PF58, as well as lower grade examples - it’s typically some type of mishandling and can be light circulation, contact with other coins, etc.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Any sign of wear or circulation is capable of making any proof coin receive a PF58 (PR58) grade.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In this case, a Seated Liberty Quarter. Thanks, Mark.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,047 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan said:
    In this case, a Seated Liberty Quarter. Thanks, Mark.

    That would be a 19th century coin. Among other types, there are quite a few Seated Liberty Proof coins of various denominations which are slightly impaired and grade less than 60. More surprisingly, however, there are even some circulated Proof gold coins that appear for sale from time to time.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    it circulated before being caught

    I like this pattern (but not enough to buy)
    https://ebay.com/itm/194985204516

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    That would be a 19th century coin. Among other types, there are quite a few Seated Liberty Proof coins of various denominations which are slightly impaired and grade less than 60. More surprisingly, however, there are even some circulated Proof gold coins that appear for sale from time to time.

    .
    ya, what were those people thinking about in those days wanting to buy food and clothes when they could have bought the rare and probably expensive for the time numismatic publications...argh, people ;)

    it is even more surprising for early gold proof being impaired, severely because about the only people that had enough money (by in large) were those with wealth. i've read/heard/been told (seen jokes in movies) that the average person never even seen a dollar bill for probably over half this countries history! (i've seen westerns that show that kind of stuff in saloons etc whereas the country folk rarely ventured or were simply too far away although that kind of comment covers probably 100 years or more.

    legit though, this thread and seeing the circ pattern made me think that by looking at the coins, there is literally no way to know w/o looking at some publication or someone knowledgeable telling someone that coin has not been authorized for legal tender, although since virtually everything in coinage was silver gold etc that was circulating early on, so long as it had the value on the coin and/or pm value, most probably didn't even care. HECK, look at what people put into bank rolls and coinstars in 2022 and we LIVE in the age of free information!!!

    have you seen the actual documents that state what is authorized coinage from 18, 19, 20th century coinage? could you imagine someone digging through the archives and finding that say mercury dimes or buffalo nickels were not actually authorized because a certain document was never received, signed etc. that would be hilarious. or perhaps the opposite, that what we call xxx pattern was actually authorized but never was produced for some reason. i can think of probably a dozen reasons both ways, legit reasons, as to how something like that could happen.

    man it is painful to think of all the people in this country or across the world holding terribly valuable and rare coins and NEVER even knowing it and spending it/melting etc. i bet i have. it is tough to know everything, i know because i tried once!

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    Well paper currency did not come widely into use until ...who knows early 20th century . Out west it was all coinage mostly .

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Silverbugsixtyeight said:
    Well paper currency did not come widely into use until ...who knows early 20th century . Out west it was all coinage mostly .

    good point. i'm not really sure how much colonial currency/fracs etc were circulating at that time. i've seen a lot of different types but that doesn't mean much was produced and i THINK i may have read in a book about early colonies not producing paper more often due to the ease in which it was counterfeited and counterfeiting seemed to be as big a problem back then as it is now. not sure which time period would be worse. they had less education/available info then but we have significantly more people doing it now with access to better information and means.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @DisneyFan said:
    In this case, a Seated Liberty Quarter. Thanks, Mark.

    That would be a 19th century coin. Among other types, there are quite a few Seated Liberty Proof coins of various denominations which are slightly impaired and grade less than 60. More surprisingly, however, there are even some circulated Proof gold coins that appear for sale from time to time.

    Sorry about the typo! 19th century it is! Here is a PF58 example. The coin is green CAC. The Obverse doesn't appear to have any wear and the field appears to be clean. The reverse seems to be another story with the appearance of wear on the feathers? The reverse field also appears clean. Cabinet friction?

    By the way, I own the coin and am happy with it as it is. Just want to understand what made it a 58.

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think what we consider to be cabinet friction is the most likely culprit for the grade on your quarter.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    Cranium_Basher73Cranium_Basher73 Posts: 2,805 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe a couple generations of dirty little sausage fingers that didn't understand the concept of "Look. But don't touch."

    Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,481 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Silverbugsixtyeight said:
    Well paper currency did not come widely into use until ...who knows early 20th century . Out west it was all coinage mostly .

    Paper money was widely used in the 19th century. The difference was it was issued by state chartered banks prior to the Civil War. Almost all of it traded for less than its face value, and it took a score card, like Nile’s Bank Note Reporter, for merchants to keep up with that. Some paper money was worthless because the bank that issued it had gone into bankruptcy or never really existed, or it was counterfeit.

    One of the benefits that came from the Civil War was the national bank system. The Federal Government printed the notes for the banks, and they were backed by the bank’s holdings in government bonds. There was a tax enacted on privately issue paper money which put it out of existence.

    Paper money was unpopular in the west. The was a time in California when it was illegal.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan ... Looking at your picture (excellent picture), I would say the grade is accurate and fits the term 'cabinet friction', which describes very light wear. Cheers, RickO

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    oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you for posting images! She's a beauty!

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...

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