Advice re seated liberty quarter

spyglassdesign

I am looking at a possible purchase and am wondering what some of the more experienced people here think. I've been offered the coin at sub $2k.

It's a pr66 1883 seated liberty quarter, NOT cameo or dcam. It is toned. I'm looking at pcgs price guide and it indicates 66 should run around $4k. Ebay of course is a dearth of lowballers. Gc has some interesting data indicating somewhere around mid $2k ish.

But I'm a bit confused about ms VS PL. When I tap ms is shows the $4k value (with recent auctions etc), but when I click PL it only shows a 67 for $15k value. Is the pr66 considered the same as ms, or would it fall under PL? Doesn't PL stand for proof like and pr stand for proof?

Thanks in advance. Any help and opinions appreciated.

scotty4449

That holder looks super funky, not sure what is going on there. PL just means the MS business strike coin has reflective fields similar to a proof.

spyglassdesign

I finally figured out how to get the pr prices on the pcgs app... Looks like mid $2k by price guide, recent auctions indicate sub $2k.

spyglassdesign

@scotty4449 thanks.

Mr_Spud

PR means it’s a proof. The only other thing i know that can contribute to this thread is that I’ve been looking for a seated dollar for my circulated type set and I found an attractive PF58 that is way cheaper than non proof AU58s. So, maybe something was going on during the time seated coinage was in circulation than made surviving Proofs more common than surviving non-proofs. But that’s just a guess/speculation on my part.

Walkerguy21D

Proofs are far more common than late date business strike seated quarters in MS. I assume in this case PL would reference a proof like business strike, which would be far scarcer than a Proof 1883 quarter.

spyglassdesign

@Mr_Spud yeah I've noticed that. The pr seems to be less desirable/less costly for some reason than the ms.

Treashunt

@spyglassdesign said:
I finally figured out how to get the pr prices on the pcgs app... Looks like mid $2k by price guide, recent auctions indicate sub $2k.

You are looking at Pl and MS.

The coin is a proof!

spyglassdesign

@Treashunt yeah I finally figured out where the pr price guide was. The mobile app can be a bit confusing at times.

In the app at the date list you have to select ms or pr at the top, then after you select a year you can get the PL.

Treashunt

Good luck

MFeld

When trying to ascertain a ballpark value for a Proof, the prices for non-Proof (“MS” and “PL”) examples are irrelevant.

Learn to search auction archives.

Here’s a very recent sale of a PCGS PR66 CAC coin of a different date of that type, but which should have a similar ballpark value.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-quarters/quarters-and-twenty-cents/1886-25c-pr66-pcgs-cac-pcgs-population-31-7-and-2-3-ngc-census-18-18-and-0-1-cdn-1-400-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcg/a/1347-7088.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Check for other sales of common date PCGS PR66 CAC pieces to get a better feel for values.

You won’t like me for saying this, but based on your questions, you don’t sound prepared to be spending that kind of money on coins.

spyglassdesign

@MFeld yeah as I stated above I finally found how to get the pr pricing as opposed to the ms. It wasn't clear in the pcgs app at first. I had to select ms/pr at the top of the year list before tapping a year.

Eldorado9

I think you can find a better example of a proof seated quarter. The marks on the obverse don't do the coin any favors, and the toning is not particularly colorful.

spyglassdesign

@Eldorado9 yeah the more I look at it the more I'm less as excited.

BillJones

I don't care for the fingerprint looking marks on the obverse given the PR-66 grade. For that reason I would pass.

The business strike mintages from 1878 to 1890 were low. For that reason, new dies were often used to strike the coins which resulted in Proof-Like (PL) coins. They are not unusual for this era.

Frankly I like Proof coins. They often sell for less than their Mint State counterparts, which is fine by me. I am more interested in having coins that I enjoy viewing than making a profit from them, which is the motive for some to steer you toward buying Mint State coins instead of Proofs.

dcarr

I like the coin. The toning seems natural (long-term formation). The devices appear frosted, so I think it actually is a cameo, but the toning subdues that appearance significantly.

edwardjulio

The coin looks nice from the posted pictures, but the strike looks somewhat weak for a PR.

TomB

Buy what you like, but the more I read of your questions the more I realize you are not educated enough to be swimming in this pool.

spyglassdesign

@TomB by that reasoning no one should get into coin collecting unless they understand as much as you or some others here. By your reasoning only the few 'educated' should be buying and selling.

That's a pretty narrow minded viewpoint.

At least I have the wherewithal to ask questions of those who are more knowledgeable than myself.

lkenefic

I'm out of my depth when it comes to Proof Seated Anything but for $2k I'm generally not making decisions based on images online. I'd want to see the coin in hand or at least have the right of refusal if I didn't like it once I got it. Be careful... that's a heck of a lot of "tuition"...

spyglassdesign

@lkenefic agreed. But on the other hand I've made more mistakes buying in hand than with pictures so far 😅

That's why when I'm unsure I ask questions because people like you are willing to help. I've already decided against buying in this case but I've already learned a lot from yours and other comments.

jmski52

Based on this and your other posts, it appears that you are in a hurry. I'd try to slow it down a bit and develop a more focused approach. It's not a race.

Rather than a more focused approach, maybe a better phrase would be a more studious approach.

spyglassdesign

@jmski52 agreed. It's hard not to get excited sometimes with something new 😁👍

The feedback I've gotten here (from most) has been very valuable. Even when I don't like it. At least I don't try to fight with you guys when I disagree or don't like it as I've seen a few others do. I respect the depth of knowledge here and even when it's not what I want to hear I have to stop and take it seriously.

Connecticoin

Looks nice to me and sub 2k seems to be a good price. If you like the way it looks in-hand can’t see much downside.

bigjpst

It depends on how far sub $2000 is. That price doesn’t seem out of line for that coin. PCGS and CAC with decent color. But as others here have said there are nicer coins out there. If you are just looking for the type you may want to keep looking.

291fifth

Put your wallet away until you know what you are doing. The fact that you even have to ask your original question tells me that you should not be spending money on collector coins.

spyglassdesign

@bigjpst not very. Yeah I've already decided to move on. Thanks.

VanHalen

Without seeing it in-hand I'd be a buyer at $1500, no more.

MFeld

@VanHalen said:
Without seeing it in-hand I'd be a buyer at $1500, no more.

That’s fine and dandy, but presently, you won’t get a PCGS/CAC PR66 at that price.

Catbert

Lady Liberty is looking askance at those toning streaks (or a fingerprint remnant?). Setting aside the price, that would drive me away from that coin.

spyglassdesign

@Catbert yeah they are a little odd.

NumisOxide

I'm a fan of the pastel colors. Looks like a nice coin.

Eldorado9

@spyglassdesign A couple from my collection. These are both graded the same at PF-66, with the 1891 being a CAM, and the 1881 being a DCAM. I would definitely steer you toward a proof quarter with strong cameo devices, and as original surfaces as you can get i.e. not dipped out. The fields should have watery mirrors. A coin like that will always be in demand.

spyglassdesign

@Eldorado9 thanks for sharing! Very nice coins!

telephoto1

FYI... Greysheet on a PF66 CAC is $1680. And their CPG retail is $2100.
Non-CAC bid is $1400 / $1750 respectively.
I have a hunch the color pops a bit better in hand.
The odd streaky obverse toning (which doesn't look like fingermarks to me) wouldn't be a dealbreaker but I'd discount a bit for it.
Obviously the decision is yours but I've seen worse offered for more.
I guess it would hinge on how far below $2k the seller is asking.

spyglassdesign

@telephoto1 said:
FYI... Greysheet on a PF66 CAC is $1680. And their CPG retail is $2100.
Non-CAC bid is $1400 / $1750 respectively.
I have a hunch the color pops a bit better in hand.
The odd streaky obverse toning (which doesn't look like fingermarks to me) wouldn't be a dealbreaker but I'd discount a bit for it.
Obviously the decision is yours but I've seen worse offered for more.
I guess it would hinge on how far below $2k the seller is asking.

Thanks. Very little under. I've moved on. Doing more homework 😉

FlyingAl

@Eldorado9 said:
@spyglassdesign A couple from my collection. These are both graded the same at PF-66, with the 1891 being a CAM, and the 1881 being a DCAM. I would definitely steer you toward a proof quarter with strong cameo devices, and as original surfaces as you can get i.e. not dipped out. The fields should have watery mirrors. A coin like that will always be in demand.

Gorgeous coins, but I also must strongly agree with others about these coins being a bit out of your league. The minor differences between CAM and DCAM and quality differing ever so slightly year after year can take years to fully understand. However, that kind of understanding leads to the best coins, ones people will pay up for. Just take some time to learn, as the coins from Eldo's post rarely pop up. Once you learn, you'll know what to look for.

The search feature is your friend!

telephoto1

Hmmm. I understand the good intent behind them but must note that I am a bit disappointed at the "coins like this are out of your league" comments. Statements like that can come across as something of an insult, even though they weren't intended as such. Perhaps a bit more tact would be appropriate. Just saying.

spyglassdesign

@telephoto1 said:
Hmmm. I understand the good intent behind them but must note that I am a bit disappointed at the "coins like this are out of your league" comments. Statements like that can come across as something of an insult, even though they weren't intended as such. Perhaps a bit more tact would be appropriate. Just saying.

Yeah some of the comments have been quite rude. But I don't take what some strangers on the internet say personally. I can take blunt truth, but some of the comments on this thread are unnecessary. To someone else they would probably just give up, but I enjoy learning so a few snide remarks aren't going to stop me.

I do appreciate the critiques that help though. Such as showing good examples of what could be had with some patience, factors they notice about the coin I may have overlooked, and resources to learn more about a topic. Good example is someone directed me to a book on the Indian penny's and I bought it.

scotty4449

I would say nothing is out of your league as long as you can afford it!

Just be careful because you can really get burned in this hobby, lord knows I have.

spyglassdesign

@scotty4449 said:
I would say nothing is out of your league as long as you can afford it!

Just be careful because you can really get burned in this hobby, lord knows I have.

Yep. You guys here have saved me from myself a couple times already. 😅

MasonG

@spyglassdesign said:

@scotty4449 said:
I would say nothing is out of your league as long as you can afford it!

Just be careful because you can really get burned in this hobby, lord knows I have.

Yep. You guys here have saved me from myself a couple times already. 😅

I think this:

"Just be careful..."

is what the people who have cautioned you have been saying, not any sort of disrespect. $2k is a lot of money. I'd bet most collectors don't have a single coin worth that much- I've been collecting for 60 years and I don't. If that amount of money isn't a big deal for you, well... consider yourself fortunate.

spyglassdesign

@MasonG if that's all it was it would be fine. As I said earlier in this thread I can handle blunt opinions, but some have been borderline rude, basically all but calling me dumb for even thinking of investing. I very much appreciate the constructive criticism I've received on this and various other threads though.

MasonG

@spyglassdesign said:
@MasonG if that's all it was it would be fine. As I said earlier in this thread I can handle blunt opinions, but some have been borderline rude, basically all but calling me dumb for even thinking of investing. I very much appreciate the constructive criticism I've received on this and various other threads though.

To be fair, investing in coins is a difficult challenge even for experienced collectors. For someone without years of experience, it's more like throwing darts or flipping a coin. That's probably where the "basically all but calling me dumb" comments are coming from.

edited to add...

This question:

"Is the pr66 considered the same as ms, or would it fall under PL?"

is one reason why you're getting the responses you have. An experienced collector would not be asking this.

edited, once again, to add...

There's nothing wrong with not knowing everything. Nobody does.

spyglassdesign

@MasonG that's a good way to turn someone off of collecting (or this forum) to be treated that way. You don't encourage someone by calling them stupid. One gentleman (or woman I dunno) actually recommended a book to me and I bought it to learn more. Fortunately I have thick skin so a few people on the internet that don't know me aren't going to ruin my broth.

I am not arguing with anyone trying to convince anyone of anything, like I have seen a couple others do with coins they own, I would understand the derision. I come asking for opinions on things I'm unsure of and (for the most part) I get some constructive criticism, even some I don't particularly like but I recognize the depth of knowledge here. These questions apparently touched a few nerves for some reason. 🤔

VanHalen

For your eyes only: legendauctions.25c-1883-pcgs-pr66-cac

MasonG

@spyglassdesign said:
@MasonG that's a good way to turn someone off of collecting (or this forum) to be treated that way.

I'm sure it is, but you have to understand that it's not an unusual occurrence for people to also claim they were turned off to collecting by paying a lot of money for something that's not really worth what they paid. I'll go back to what I said before- if you can deal with a $2k purchase that turns out to not be what you thought it would be, that's great. Most people can't, and I believe that's where the posters here are coming from. If they don't know you (and your financial situation), perhaps they might think it would be helpful to do what they can to get you to slow down before getting in over your head?

Just a thought...

lkenefic

@spyglassdesign ... glad you're getting Rick Snow's book. The pages on the 1877 alone saved me from buying at least one counterfeit piece, and directed me to coins that I ultimately sold for a decent profit.

FWIW, I've been collecting (off and on) for over 50 years and I just bought my first coin approaching $2k this year... care of a tax check I was not expecting. The issue I purchased (Liberty Cap Large Cent) was in an area I'm fairly comfortable with and had been actively looking for several years, so I knew what was "out there". I'd owned a few Liberty Cap LCs over the years, but they were all low end damaged pieces and I wanted a (relatively) problem free example that was either PCGS or NGC certified in at least F12.

I think I did pretty well, but I'm in this as a Hobby... disposable income... I have a small amount per month from my Entertainment budget to go to coin purchases. I view it as going to the movies, but I get to look at it again and again for as long as I own the coin. And unlike a movie or a dinner, I can sell the coin (hopefully at a profit) and get something else. Anyway, this is just my "approach". Getting the books is another way to engage with the hobby... I'm glad you got the IHC book... best, Leo

ricko

Reading this thread, it brings to mind the cautionary note I have used over the years on social media. This type of communication is two dimensional... Not like in-person communication. It lacks facial expression and tone of voice. Therefore, much can be lost as opposed to live communications. Also, one does not get poked in the nose for a nasty comment that would likely not get made in person. Cheers, RickO