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1848 Large Cent Attribution

EvanCrook1EvanCrook1 Posts: 66 ✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Hi y’all,

Recently acquired this large cent from a buddy
over on CoinTalk and was working on attributing it. Spent a little over an hour as I am a newbie at it but I came down to N-9, N-25, or N-41. Does anyone know if one of these are correct?

I have been using “The Die Varieties of United States Large Cents 1840-1857” by John R. Grellman Jr, and it’s been a really helpful guide so far. It still took a while as this is a later date large cent and there’s a whole lot of slight variations but hopefully I narrowed down the correct ones lol.


Comments

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Congratulations for trying; I don’t bother after 1839, other than the Redbook varieties.
    You certainly have the best book to help you.

    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,914 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Calling my new friend @WilliamF


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 8,160 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is a tough one.... I'm looking at Grellman's diagnostics for N-15: Obverse- "heavy hub roughness around dentils between stars 1-4, 4-5, 6-8, 9-11" and "Stars 1-4 each have a lump defect near an outer point"...

    But I don't see the short dull point on the O of ONE on the Reverse...

    That's about as close as I can get... best of luck!

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @EvanCrook1 said:

    .
    climbing mt. everest for your first mountain is one heck of a choice!

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow, this one is tough! Not a whole lot of markers to go by...
    I have Grellmans book as well, (It's a great one! ).
    I don't think it is N-41, the hub roughness around the dentils for N-41 is only shown on the very earliest die stages, doesn't completely rule it out but makes it much less of a possibility with how fast the dies deteriorate, also Grellman says: "Always has some small lumps on base of CEN in CENT..."
    I'm looking very hard and I don't see any of the lumps shown in the book, for me that is what rules out N-41

    I don't think it is N-9 either as there is no mention of hub roughness around the dentils at any stage on N-9

    N-25 is looking like the best possibility out of the ones you mentioned Evan, it has the Hub roughness around the dentils (which yours definitely has) it has "Crumbling present at most stars" I see it on some of the left side stars on your example, and the ONE CENT is very clean, it all checks out with your coin...

    But... as @Ikenefic mentioned, N-15 has many of the same characteristics, one difference that might be the deciding factor is on the reverse lettering. The M in AMERICA is supposed to have 2 small lumps sticking off the side (between the M & the A)
    I may just be looking too hard but I think I can see the remains of those 2 lumps on your coin, which would make it more likely an N-15...

    I'll look at it some more tomorrow, but for now, I'm going to hit the hay :)

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @EvanCrook1 .... Welcome aboard. I cannot help with attribution, but those are superb pictures. Cheers, RickO

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 8,160 ✭✭✭✭✭

    OK.. fresh set of eyes and a couple of cups of coffee on board... I'm not seeing the Reverse diagnostics for N-15. The "dull point up from left top of O in ONE" or the "two stronger points upright of M in AMERICA"...

    N-25 should have a Reverse with "top of N in ONE filled by crumbling and bottoms of E & N in CENT lightly joined"... is it just me, but I'm not seeing this either...

    I think it's likely one or the other... these are the only two varieties with hub roughness consistent with your piece. I leaned more towards N-15 because I think I'm seeing at least 2 of the lumps near stars 1-4 on the Obverse.

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2022 2:42AM

    @lkenefic said:
    OK.. fresh set of eyes and a couple of cups of coffee on board... I'm not seeing the Reverse diagnostics for N-15. The "dull point up from left top of O in ONE" or the "two stronger points upright of M in AMERICA"...

    N-25 should have a Reverse with "top of N in ONE filled by crumbling and bottoms of E & N in CENT lightly joined"... is it just me, but I'm not seeing this either...

    I think it's likely one or the other... these are the only two varieties with hub roughness consistent with your piece. I leaned more towards N-15 because I think I'm seeing at least 2 of the lumps near stars 1-4 on the Obverse.

    Okay so I did some fiddling with the lighting on the picture to see if I could get a clearer picture and it seems to me that this example does have slight crumbling at the top of the N and also appears that the E and N of CENT are joined... no?
    At this point, I'm pretty sure it's N-25 but I'm still looking to see if I can see anything else in the pics that would confirm or deny that.

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 8,160 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ah! Someone with imaging skills!! I agree.... N-25...

    This one was not easy...

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Anything lower grade than XF gets pretty challenging!

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the books are great to use in tandem with coinfacts/heritage etc images blown up really big or really best to d/l the images to your desktop/tablet. easier to move around imo.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • EvanCrook1EvanCrook1 Posts: 66 ✭✭

    Thank you all for the help! This coin was a pain tryin to identify the attribution as there were so many slight die due to it being a later date. Next time ill get some better pictures to make it easier. Do yall have any tips for identifying later date attributions?

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 8,160 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I still consider myself something of a neophyte in LC attribution. I started off with the Coinfacts website but quickly found the books to be a requirement. I usually use both... the book lists what to look for (in painstaking detail sometimes) and the Coinfacts website gives me a sense of how its represented on an actual coin. From there it's going to depend on how much detail is left on the coin to be attributed... and as @WilliamF said, once these start getting into the VF range and below there are fewer diagnostics remaining and it becomes more of a process of elimination. As far as tips? ...be patient!! ;)

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • EvanCrook1EvanCrook1 Posts: 66 ✭✭

    Thank you for the advice! I will try out coinfacts on the next large cent I attribute. It did take a while to find the books for reference but Im really getting into early coppers and their verities

  • TheRegulatorTheRegulator Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭

    I'm not sure what variety it is, but pretty sure it's not an 1848 N-25. Tops of the 1 and 4 don't match, hair tip over the right edge of first 8 doesn't match, and base of second 8 relative to base of 4 doesn't match.

    For the late dates, all that really matters is the date/digits. The other diagnostics for confirmation will likely not be evident on lower grade/circulated specimens like the piece shown.

    The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -Thomas Jefferson

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