Are crossovers 'blinded'?
logger7
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When you send in a coin for a crossover at PCGS from whatever grading service the coin is in, are the grades blinded so that the graders don't know how it has been graded?
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I dont know the process used, but have had better luck with crack outs personally
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I wonder how they do it with scratched slabs with proofs inside - it's really hard to tell what's on the holder vs. the coin.
Coin Photographer.
Also what about coins where they can't see the edge, they would have to err on the side of caution?
I have a couple in right now and I considered putting tape over the grade but decided that was more likely to antagonize the graders and that they could easily pull it off anyway. Just hope for the best I guess.
I don't think so, or at least, not completely; they can't give a coin a proper grading while it's still in the rival slab, and don't want to crack it out of the rival slab unless they're already sure it'll grade the same or better, because they promise to return the coin in it's original intact holder if it won't cross over at the specified grade. PCGS can't open up and reseal NGC slabs, nor vice-versa; if they could that would kind of defeat the purpose of having "tamper-proof" slabs.
So it has to be given an initial assessment, while still in the holder and with the rival's grade known to at least someone in the assessment team. If it passes, then it would be handed over to the crackout crew, then the liberated coin would be passed back to the graders for the official grading. I'd guess the unknown factor would then be, how much pressure would the graders be under to back up their earlier positive assessment of the grade? Would they even be the same people making that decision?
I'd guess on rare occasions, a coin might look better in the slab than it looks in hand - or the coin might even get damaged by the crackout process - and the coin actually ends up in the new slab with a worse-than-specified grade, despite the assurance that they'll try really hard not to do that. I'd guess some monetary compensation for the loss of the rival slab would then result.
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Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
No one knows for sure.
The original grade is covered up and the graders have to use caution when grading so as to not allow a coin with hidden damage or issues into a PCGS holder. Therefore, they may be a tad bit (but not much) more cautious, especially with slabs that are marred.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Last NGC cross of 6 coins MS64 to 67. All came back DNC.
So I cracked them out. came back all down 2 to 6 grades!!
outrageous. NGC not that far off . Now they tell me to resubmit again for reconsideration pay a third time
and wait another 4 months. not a happy camper. very hesitant to submit anything again.
Well you are taking a chance going in hoping grade up so no can have the cake B eat it too 😉 that’s the ONLY reason besides having it in our host slab… right? IMHO
I personally would crack it out so not to influence graders in any way …… taking the chance with my chin up hoping my call us right is the $$$
I always wondered about this, and just assumed that the existing holders were masked in some way from the graders.
I've always cracked out before resubmitting, but I'm about to attempt an ANACS-to-PCGS cross. I don't want to crack it out of the old small ANACS holder, on the off chance it gets a "details" grade from PCGS. I'm confident it's undergraded in the old holder, but it's that bit of uncertainty about a possible old cleaning that worries me (even though the coin looks original to me). I do not keep "details" coins in my collection. If they don't straight-grade, I sell them.
The only one attempt I've made at a true crossover so far (NGC to PCGS) did not cross.
I found PCGS lacking real bias in the few crossovers I've done. An old Anacs graded Pan Pac gold dollar went AU58 to MS62.
I always assumed that the grade was covered, but does it really matter?? These are, as a whole, the best-of-the-best graders currently available, having plenty of experience. It isn't like PCGS is letting new graders have a crack at crossovers.
The real cause for most DNC's is wishful thinking on the part of submitters. That may sound harsh but the truth is often a bitter pill to swallow. I enjoyed my own high rejection rate until I wised up, learned more and allowed the results of submissions to teach me. Also, as I moved away from coins to Exonumia my submissions improved. I came to discover that taken as a whole PCGS and NGC tend to view things the same. That makes it a little easier although PCGS is still a little more conservative and tends to still teach me. As a general rule I'm successful on about 80% of my crossovers.
There is, however, one medal that has me flummoxed. I'm oh-for-two and think I finally learned!!
On the statistics page, the crossover success rate generally runs 40%, about the same with cac submissions. You would think that the submitters pre-select certified coins that they believe will cross at grade so there are many others that are not submitted that they believe would be a waste of time and money to submit.
FWIW, I've had very good success crossing over older ANACS silver dollars to PCGS. Almost all were +/- 1 mint state grading point.
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~Wayne
It's a half dollar in my case, and not MS- but pretty close.
I have found through dozens of the same coins being graded by both TPG's that they are about the same, some cross, an occasional one does not, some grades higher, some lower, but mostly the same between the 2 TPGs. I have been impressed at how consistent they have been given the subjectivity in it all. Neither is more liberal or conservative across the wide spectrum of grading, than the other, in my experience.
Post pictures please
Latin American Collection
Recent crossovers.
Old ANACS64 > PCGS64:
Old ANACS62RB > PCGS63RB:
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/6271926-008/65/ > DNC
I would be interested in hearing the rest of the story. What were the coins? What were the grades? When you say "down 2 to 6 grades", what does that mean? For example, do you mean something like MS67 to MS61 (this is 6 grades), or F12 to G6 (this is 3 grades), or AU58 to AU55 (this is 1 grade)?
I cracked out two old white ANACS graded AU50 and PCGS graded them AU58! I have also had them go the other way. AU55 to XF45, EF45 to XF40.
I personally don't think there would be bias were the grades not to be blinded especially with now defunct holders. The old white Anacs holders are actually defunct too with no grade guarantee just an authenticity guarantee. PCI, NNC, and holders from 20 or so years ago cover up the edge, I'm thinking that they are willing to take the coins out as edge analysis would assumed to be part of the grading back then. There is a small risk that there is something covered by those old holders which could affect grade. NGC will not cross any holders but PCGS in the slab.
They are typically not covered or 'blinded'.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
I wonder what would have happened if the NGCs also had a green sticker?
Personally I find it very disappointing that the entity we all spend enormous amounts of money to support won't simply log on and answer the question. If nothing else it proves a choice by them to keep something so mundane a secret. One must ask why. But certainly the answer leads to $$$.
I find it even more disappointing that collectors have allowed themselves to be manipulated to think TPG is going to be influenced by a sticker. But that's a huge part of the engineering behind the sticker game so one must appreciate the brilliance of it from a profit generating viewpoint.