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Another beauty from 1792

NeveroddoreveNNeveroddoreveN Posts: 106
edited August 8, 2022 8:59AM in U.S. Coin Forum


Ok while waiting on results of submission thought I would see what you guys thought of this one. In full disclosure I have posted this coin in the past on other sites to which I was informed it was a classic head to which I argued, no big surprise there. What I never got through to those before is if you stop and look at the date it’s pretty clear it’s not a classic, unsure? Look up the dates of classic head cents. Better yet the first to pictures one is a painting by Joseph Wright the second is a closeup on the medal. After looking at it if you’re still unsure what your looking at it’s a snake devouring its self looking more you will find his initials its A J atop another J with a hook to the right JJW. With that look for these on my coin especially the O in one and around it.











Comments

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    @Rexford said:
    It’s just a very corroded Classic Head cent.

    Please explain how this corroded classic head was minted 1792 to start. I’m only asking because that is the date minted on it. Also if you can explain the lettering around the edge and the Joseph Wright initials found all over it, again I only ask because these things confuse me not being found on any other classic head.

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    BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,963 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m confused, but admittedly when I saw a corroded classic head I stopped reading the rest of the post.

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    OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @NeveroddoreveN said:

    @Rexford said:
    It’s just a very corroded Classic Head cent.

    Please explain how this corroded classic head was minted 1792 to start. I’m only asking because that is the date minted on it. Also if you can explain the lettering around the edge and the Joseph Wright initials found all over it, again I only ask because these things confuse me not being found on any other classic head.

    Easy to explain. It isn't dated 1792. It is too corroded to tell the date, although the first 2 digits resemble 18. You're just seeing what you want to see, just like the other heavily corroded large cents you previously posted

    BTW, why did you post this in the World and Ancient forum?

    Member of the ANA since 1982
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    @Oldhoopster said:

    @NeveroddoreveN said:

    @Rexford said:
    It’s just a very corroded Classic Head cent.

    Please explain how this corroded classic head was minted 1792 to start. I’m only asking because that is the date minted on it. Also if you can explain the lettering around the edge and the Joseph Wright initials found all over it, again I only ask because these things confuse me not being found on any other classic head.

    Easy to explain. It isn't dated 1792. It is too corroded to tell the date, although the first 2 digits resemble 18. You're just seeing what you want to see, just like the other heavily corroded large cents you previously posted

    BTW, why did you post this in the World and Ancient forum?

    Thought i was posting elsewhere sorry if it can be moved by all means please do. Yes it is corroded as the others but it isn’t to corroded to see the date and corrosion doesn’t spell or have better handwriting than I have.
    Then there is this star I can’t seem to find a single example from any classic head die which there is a five point star.

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    And as you can see that star has no damage from impact or corrosion

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    pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,387 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2022 12:34PM

    If I was forced to collect “beauties” like that, I’d be out of the hobby in nothing flat.

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    @pruebas said:
    If I was forced to collect “beauties” like that, I’d be out of the hobby in nothing flat.

    Well aren’t you the lucky one unfortunately I have limited cash being disabled and all. But to me it’s the thrill of the hunt after you spend hrs and hrs reading and learning so in the end you might have a coin very few of the fortunate are able to buy. Such as this coin which I say with confidence.

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    ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Two words...... over medicated. ;)

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    lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,368 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rexford said:
    It’s just a very corroded Classic Head cent.

    This. Everything else is pareidolia at work.


    Explore collections of lordmarcovan on CollecOnline, management, safe-keeping, sharing and valuation solution for art piece and collectibles.
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    Ok ok ok you guys have me I concede. Wow come on no need to be so brutal I concur already. Man, really guys I appreciate you setting me straight again. To think I was convinced there was actually a date of 1792 on this piece of crap.





    Again thanks eye’s playing tricks on me again I almost believed there was this huge eagle head holding a shield while standing on a globe. Can you believe that mess? Lol




    Then those self devouring snakes were everywhere then the pyramids with the all seeing eye creepy. But I still have 1 question how does the corrosion know how to make Joseph Jr Wright’s initials?









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    Interesting fun fact about Joseph Wright he was a Master Mason who used symbolism in his work

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    lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,368 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2022 9:21PM

    Unfortunately, when you've got that level of corrosion, the metal moves all kinds of ways and it is easy to imagine things amongst all the lumps and bumps and craters. Trust me, I was a detectorist, and I've spent many an hour scoping a crusty coin find through a loupe, trying to figure out what it is.

    There's one I dug on a site that produced several colonial era pieces, and I've never conclusively ID-ed it. I think it's a Louis XV French copper, but it's so toasty one could never say for sure. Like your Classic Head cent there, but worse, in that there is only the faintest whisper of a portrait to be seen on it. Under magnification it looks like a moonscape.

    You've got some moonscape action going on with that piece there, but it also has enough visible detail to identify by type. It is clearly a Classic Head cent. They were very prone to corrosion, too- moreso than the earlier or subsequent types.


    Explore collections of lordmarcovan on CollecOnline, management, safe-keeping, sharing and valuation solution for art piece and collectibles.
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    As for the question can anyone be that lucky? Let’s see what are the odds of someone picking a group of 6 coins and later finding they contained extreme rarities. I would say about as good as picking 6 r random numbers and having someone on TV calling them out. So ask yourself this how many people have won the lottery more than once hint there have been more than 1.

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    I have given example after example showing the coin for what I say it is. Yet all I hear is corrosion corrosion corrosion or the first 2 numbers look like they could be or those aren’t letters it’s corrosion. No they are letters same as taught in elementary and there is corrosion but not to the extent that it misshapes metal in the pattern of initials over and again, nor does it creat snakes eating themselves. Sorry that’s just the facts of it not trying to pull the wool over your eyes here.

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    I’m assuming you are referring to the two 1799 and this coin along with the quarter Joseph Wright aka (Coronet) when you say I claim 4 rare coins. Let’s look at that a sec first I will address the ugly sister she came in a box of culls I came across and wasn’t bought for her, it took me some time to figure out her age. Beside the point she is as irrelevant today as she was then. Now her sister on the other hand I bought her believing she was 1799 though I took a risk at acquiring her because of the corrosion. I must say it was probably the best 20 I ever spent in hindsight. As stated above she is at grader and waiting to here back from them. Now for the other two the Wright coins, bought together in a group of culls had them sitting around probably about a year before I got bored and picked one of them up. To my surprise it wasn’t what I had believed it to be sitting in the box. afterwards I found the other again from the box again surprised. Now I can see what you are seeing in these two coins it’s the same reason they sat in a box for a year. With that being said I can see how they were overlooked for all this time and being the only one of their kind I can see why they would be found together. Imagine it’s 1818 life is good till one night lightning hits and starts a fire consuming everything. The coins fall to the ground and aren’t seen again for 200 years. I can see it happening that way and many more.

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    As for the Wright quarter I did a little light restoration on it and it’s coming along nicely I think

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    @Sapyx said:
    It absolutely, 100% guaranteed, is not 1792. Here is the logic:

    • Let us begin with observation. What does the date actually say? Despite your protestations, it does not clearly say anything, it is too badly corroded to be certain of any of the numerals.
    • The coin is clearly and obviously a highly corroded "Classic Head" US cent. You can't see much of the obverse, but you can see the headband where "LIBERTY" runs through Liberty's hair, and there are star-shaped blobs in the locations where stars are supposed to be for that design.
    • Being unfamiliar with the Classic US Cent series, I did indeed look it up. They were issued 1808-1814.
    • Therefore, whatever that corroded mess of scrambled numbers originally have read, it couldn't possibly have read "1792".

    End of logical argument. There is no "But what ifs", or "Maybes", or "Howevers" that can logically be added. It's Occam's razor again. Which is more probable?

    • It's a corroded classic cent, dating from sometime between 1808 and 1814

    or:

    • It's some kind of weird, extremely rare and undocumented 1792 coin featuring Washington facing left and wearing a LIBERTY ribbon on his head, that just so happens to look exactly like a Classic Head Cent when it gets very badly corroded?

    Clearly, that first option is so overwhelmingly more probable, that the second option can be dismissed.

    This is, what, your fourth posting about a corroded coin you're claiming to be something that it clearly isn't? Occam's razor, again. A newbie making an unprecedented discovery of a rare, never-seen-before coin can and does happen. But it's not very likely to happen to any one specific newbie, not even once. You're claiming it's happened to you four or five times in a row now. Incredibly unlikely.

    I know you want to believe that these cheap, corroded coins you have are something special and significant that everybody else can't see. I know you want to believe we're all part of some secret conspiracy to suppress the news of the existence of a previously unrecorded coin type. But they really aren't, and we're really not. Sorry.

    I feel I need to counter your razor alone with Chatton’s anti Razor “If three things are not enough to verify an affirmative proposition about things, a fourth must be added, and so on.” The caution here is to not be afraid to look at more complex explanations.

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    lcutlerlcutler Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2022 4:41AM

    You are focusing on tiny, corroded, markings that only you can see as numbers and letters. How do you explain the plain as day Classic head cent bust? And you are bringing up once again, your even more obvious Coronet cent. Didn't you get an opinion on this one at a coin show? You have gotten advice from some true experts in the field as well as many very knowledgeable numismatists. A good portion of my Connecticut copper collection is lower grade coins that I have ID'd as to variety. Connecticut coppers are one of the tougher series to ID by variety in lower grade but I have to say I am pretty good at it. The very first step, is to look at the overall design, which way the head faces, draped bust or mailed bust, etc. This narrows down the field, then, move on to some of the finer details to narrow it down further, then move on to even finer details, etc. You absolutely cannot ignore the major details and immediately try to zero in on minute details, especially if they are not even visible. Doing it this way, you are definitely destined to fail. Not every coin is going to be a Strawberry leaf cent with a 1794 starred reverse, or extremely rare 1792 pattern. Identifying low grade coins can be very gratifying, but you have to do it right. You also have to be willing to accept the fact that some coins are just too far gone to completely ID.

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see the parking lot find types have finally invaded the darkside! :D

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    @lcutler said:
    You are focusing on tiny, corroded, markings that only you can see as numbers and letters. How do you explain the plain as day Classic head cent bust? And you are bringing up once again, your even more obvious Coronet cent. Didn't you get an opinion on this one at a coin show? You have gotten advice from some true experts in the field as well as many very knowledgeable numismatists. A good portion of my Connecticut copper collection is lower grade coins that I have ID'd as to variety. Connecticut coppers are one of the tougher series to ID by variety in lower grade but I have to say I am pretty good at it. The very first step, is to look at the overall design, which way the head faces, draped bust or mailed bust, etc. This narrows down the field, then, move on to some of the finer details to narrow it down further, then move on to even finer details, etc. You absolutely cannot ignore the major details and immediately try to zero in on minute details, especially if they are not even visible. Doing it this way, you are definitely destined to fail. Not every coin is going to be a Strawberry leaf cent with a 1794 starred reverse, or extremely rare 1792 pattern. Identifying low grade coins can be very gratifying, but you have to do it right. You also have to be willing to accept the fact that some coins are just too far gone to completely ID.

    Do me a favor and look again at my so called coronet and tell me what number you find above the bust at the rim and again at the rim below the figure center of the coin. Sometimes it’s as plain as the nose on your face and you still don’t see it. There is a word going through the center of that figure and it isn’t one or cent but for some reason because the bust looks similar to a coronet that word and those numbers don’t exist. But on the other hand if I send in a 1799 draped bust as an nc1 yet the leaves cross the stem it’s sent back as not that variety? Which is it ? Are we to throw out anything that doesn’t look like the picture or are we to try and figure it out because as I understand it each coin has a matching pair of die. Ok it looks like a coronet but it isn’t and there is no one who can match it to a single die pairing period and not because of corrosion. It can’t be done because it has to many different details not brought on by corrosion but minting. Example the clothing all wrong the bust itself face is way to fat or the obvious the fn 25 at the rim above it.

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    And again I say yes I took the quarter to the Austin show but there were no large copper specialists to be found.

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    This is Joseph Wrights initials next to the number 25

    Then you have the 25 I was referring to atop the bust
    Explain how those numbers fit in to the coronet or better yet why the initials of a dead man are there because by the time the coronet was minted in its run Wright was DEAD? If the round peg don’t fit try another hole!

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    I’m in no way trying to say I more intelligent than anyone here and I appreciate the time given but I can’t in good conscience go along with something that will only confuse others in the future. I understand a coin has to match what we know to be considered that variety or from that series and this coin does not match. I would think that no one here would say a coin is doubled when it isn’t because it has to have certain characteristics and agin this one doesn’t have them to be a coronet.

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    There will be no need to eject me from the forum as I see it if there is no one here that can see what’s right in-front of them then it does me no good being here and will wish you all good hunting. That is unless there is anyone who cares to be a smart as. I do hope in the future you might keep your mind open to the possibilities that anything can happen.

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    lcutlerlcutler Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2022 6:16AM

    None of the things you are claiming to see are even there! I have spent way to much time looking, they are not there. No one can see them but you, kind of tells you something. Send the coins for verification. If they come back as what you think they are, I will gladly pay all the fees. Have you heard anything on the coin you sent to ANACS?

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    sylsyl Posts: 915 ✭✭✭

    I think that it's a new Rorschach test

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    ElmerFusterpuckElmerFusterpuck Posts: 4,685 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,044 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Threads like this are even worse than the corroded Lincoln Memorial Cent threads of several months ago.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Member of the ANA since 1982
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    Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,364 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wait, I think I'm beginning to see it................ B)

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

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    lcutlerlcutler Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    Why does anyone bother to reply at all, much less, using logic and including facts? It should be painfully obvious that it doesn't make any difference,

    Unfortunately you are correct. I genuinely like to help people along in numismatics, and give the benefit of the doubt but this is utterly ridiculous.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 15,028 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pure delusion.

    @NeveroddoreveN said:
    There will be no need to eject me from the forum as I see it if there is no one here that can see what’s right in-front of them then it does me no good being here and will wish you all good hunting.

    Let's end the story right here on a positive note. ;)

    Maybe someday we can plan a forum reunion when you have all these new discoveries in slabs and you can show off your rarities. :)

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    LukeMarshallLukeMarshall Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If its any consolation, @lcutler I thought your first post was heartfelt, knowledgeable, and with a helpful connotation.

    It's all about what the people want...

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    NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This attempted scam has been going on since 2016, by using well worn and/or corroded coins and deceptively trying to pass off as a rare date or item. They use circulation scratches and marks, corrosion pits and lumps, and stray engraving marks as supposed engraver's initials that in fact do not exist, including Joseph Wright, to fraudulently tie the piece to that time period. I have saved PM's from a couple of people attempting to do this.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    this is what i see. the obv is obviously a classic head large cent with the corresponding stars.

    i could have ALMOST bought into a scarce undertype but that isn't how this is presented and i can tell you, uploading close-ups of random spots on severely corroded coins is virtually useless as it all blends in and looks the same.

    i've done a few of these types of things and there is one immutable truth, less is more. (don't upload 20-30 images because if a few won't get it done, 100 won't matter)

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Enough of the nonsense. Its not worth the effort to respond any longer. Based on the OPs personal situation that he shared, I truly hope he hasn't wasted too much money sending some of these to ANACS (yes I may be a sucker in believing him).

    Member of the ANA since 1982
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @NeveroddoreveN.... Well, goodbye.... Sorry to hear you are so embedded in your pareidolia that you cannot face reality... even when clearly stated by the experts. Cheers, RickO

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    WQuarterFreddieWQuarterFreddie Posts: 2,548 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My suggestion is the next thread he posts with a corroded coin we should all tell him he has a valuable rare coin!

    I bet he will still find a reason to disagree and post numerous objections 😂🤣

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    CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,619 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2022 8:29AM

    Even if we all agreed it was real, you still could not get full market value w/o being in a major grading service slab.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,575 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Until a few years ago, I had never heard of the word "pareidolia" now it's nearly an everyday occurrence on this forum. One reason for it is, the posters that it is used to explain their wish for the coins they are posting about continually refuse to accept it and continue to find fairy tale items on their coins.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain

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