Fred Weinberg's Experimental Pattern 1944 Lincoln Cents!
Zoins
Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
Some of the most interesting offerings for me in Fred's recent auction sales are the two experimental Lincoln cents, one being 69% silver! Anyone know who won these coins?
Given that these are experimental cents, I'm really interested in more information on these. Should these have, or do these already have, Judd numbers?
Calling @FredWeinberg and @MrEureka! 
And Roger from ATS!
1944 Lincoln Cent
Struck on an Experimental Planchet
69% Silver, 31% Copper
Grade: PCGS MS62
Cert: PCGS 42364708
Realized Price $19,200.00 - Heritage 2022
Heritage wrote:
1944 1C Lincoln Cent -- Experimental Planchet -- MS62 PCGS. Ex: Fred Weinberg Collection. 3.6 grams. 69% Silver, 31% copper. During World War II, copper was an important munitions alloy, while silver was not. For example, silver was added to the wartime Jefferson nickel alloy, while copper and nickel were removed. One can speculate that the present cent was intentionally struck as part of an effort to replace the unsuitable 1943 steel cent alloy yet reduce the copper content of 1944 cents. In any event, this coin exists in its possibly unique silver-copper alloy. It is lustrous and nicely struck with unmarked surfaces and light golden-brown toning. The reverse has a railroad rim near 9 o'clock. The rim is widest on the reverse near 5 o'clock, and narrowest on the obverse near 5 o'clock.From The Fred Weinberg Collection.
1944 Lincoln Cent
on a Thick Experimental Planchet
64% Copper, 20% Zinc, 16% Nickel
Grade: PCGS MS63
Cert: 42364709
Realized Price $12,000.00 - Heritage 2022
Heritage wrote:
1944 1C Lincoln Cent -- Experimental Planchet -- MS63 PCGS. Ex: Fred Weinberg Collection. 4.9 grams. The typical 1944 cent weighs 3.1 grams. Pollock (1994) states "1944 one-cent pieces are known struck on especially thick planchets. These are listed as "experimental cents" in the Judd pattern reference. Other numismatists regard them to be mint errors; i.e. struck on planchets cut from sheets of rolled stock intended for the production of foreign coins." Pollock listed them as P-2078. It is curious that the alloy is 16% nickel, since that metal was absent from 1944 Jefferson nickels. Regardless of whether the present piece is a pattern, an experimental cent, or a mint error on a foreign planchet, it is possibly unique in its alloy combination. It is well struck and coruscating with light peach-gold toning and minimal signs of contact.From The Fred Weinberg Collection.
Comments
That is a cool coin. Especially since it is intentional and not a cent on a dime planchet, etc.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Heritage Auctions just sold two 1944 Lincoln Cents from the Fred Weinberg Collection. Although the PCGS insert with the Fred Weinberg pedigree designates these as Struck on Experimental Planchets,-
THEY VERY LIKELY WERE STRUCK ON FOREIGN PLANCHETS!
Here is the link to the article in Mint Error News:
https://minterrornews.com/news-5-6-22-1944-off-metal-lincoln-cents-experimental-or-on-foreign-planchets.html
In the Heritage auction archives, there is a 1944 Lincoln Cent, certified MS 63 by PCGS, and designated as Struck on a Netherlands 25C Planchet. A Netherlands quarter planchet from 1944 has a weight of 3.57 grams, a diameter of 19mm, and is 64% silver and 36% copper. This almost identically matches the 1944 Lincoln Cent certified MS 62 by PCGS, and designated as Experimental 3.6g Planchet. It also has a diameter of 19mm, a weight of 3.6 grams (which could have been rounded up from 3.57 grams) and is also silver and copper with slightly different percentages. It is 69% silver instead of 64% and 31% copper instead of 36%. It is most likely that Fred Weinberg's 3.6g experimental cent was struck on a Netherlands 25C Planchet.
Also in the Heritage auction archives, there is a 1944 Lincoln Cent, certified MS 62 by PCGS, and designated as Struck on a Philippines 5C Planchet. A Philippines five centavos planchet from 1944 has a weight of 4.92 grams, a diameter of 19mm, and is 65% copper, 23% zinc and 12% nickel. This almost identically matches the 1944 Lincoln Cent certified MS 63 by PCGS, and designated as Experimental 4.9g Thick Planchet. It also has a diameter of 19mm, a weight of 4.9 grams and is also copper, zinc and nickel with slightly different percentages. It is 64% copper instead of 65%, 20% zinc instead of 23%, and 16% nickel instead of 12%. It is most likely that Fred Weinberg's 4.9g experimental cent was struck on a Philippines 5C Planchet.
Mint Error News published a 69 page PDF report detailing the mintages of foreign coinage struck by the US Mint. This report contains all the potential planchet compositions that off-metal coins could be struck on. In the case of these two 1944 Lincoln Cents, the only planchets that match the metal compositions of these off-metal errors are the 3.57g Netherlands 25C Planchet and the 4.92g Philippines 5C Planchet.
Click here to read the report:
https://minterrornews.com/foreign_coinage_production_figures.pdf
Below are the auction images and details on comparable off-metal 1944 Lincoln Cents struck on a Netherlands 25C Planchet and a Philippines 5C Planchet.
•1944 Cent, MS63, Struck on a
Netherlands 25 Cent Planchet
SOLD FOR $7,637.50
1944 Lincoln Cent -- Struck on a Netherlands 25 Cent Planchet -- MS63 PCGS. A Netherlands 25 cent planchet has a standard weight of 3.575 gm and a standard diameter of 19 mm. The silver alloy is 640 Fine. The U.S. struck coins for the Netherlands in 1944 and 1945 due to its German occupation. Though a 1944 cent on a zinc-plated steel flan is a costly off metal error, the present piece should prove much more affordable despite similar rarity. Lustrous, sharply struck, and unmarked with delicate wheat-gold and ice-blue toning.
From The Geyer Family Collection.
•1944 Lincoln Cent, MS62
Struck on a Philippines 5 Centavos Planchet
SOLD FOR $6,462.50
1944 Lincoln Cent -- Struck on a Philippines 5 Centavos Planchet -- MS62 PCGS. The Philadelphia Mint struck 5 centavos for the Philippines (KM-180a) due to the Japanese occupation. A standard five centavos alloy is 0.650 copper, 0.230 zinc, and 0.120 nickel. Crisply struck and coruscating with smooth surfaces and a hint of olive-gold toning. All design elements are intact.
From The Geyer Family Collection.
I think @byers assessment of these coins being struck on foreign planchets has merit, even if the XRF data is a little off. Due to variations in sample prep, spot size, algorhythm used by the handheld XRF for calculating trace elements, etc, I would be very surprised if there isn't variability in the compositional data.
While I'm sure the TPG ran the calibration, what about these question
*How many tests did they run?
*Is the sample size statistically significant?
*What is the data for a known standard and typical sample?(however it may be difficult with limited samples, but you could always test a dozen of the Netherlands or Philippines coins)
*How does the handheld compare to lab equipment?
IMO, there is a lot of missing data that I would like to see before saying that the comp is the same or different than the foreign planchets, but I don't think you can dismiss it based on the available data. IMO, too many other things closely match
Hmm... very interesting. So these are similar to coins struck on Netherlands and Philippine planchets for coins the US Mint was striking.
It would be interesting to see what theory is more plausible, experimental WWII cents or foreign planchets.
It would be great to hear from @FredWeinberg as the ones listed on Heritage are certified as PCGS foreign planchet Mint Errors.
A nice thing about both of these is that they are full size, unlike the many cent on dimes and dime planchets I see.
Why couldn't both be true? You experiment with what's available. Although I doubt there was any serious attempt to move to a silver cent.
Shouldn't there be mint records of any experiments?
I love patterns and it would be great if there were Mint records indicating these compositions were experimented with for circulation coinage, and possibly using foreign planchet cents as you mention.
If these are recognized as patterns, it would be great to have them recognized with Judd numbers which I asked about above.
This is why it's great to get more information on these from Fred, Andy and Roger! Mike indicated these are likely foreign planchet errors but I assume Fred designated them experimental, Andy is involved in Judd number assignments, and Roger resarches experimental cents.
Given that a silver cent with a composition of 69% silver was worth around 4 cents in 1944, it is highly unlikely this was a pattern issue. I think that the explanation above is correct, these are wrong planchet errors.
Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.
Very good point @FlyingAl! I was excited for this to be a pattern since the idea of a silver cent is very appealing, but if it's 4 cents of silver, the point of it being a wrong planchet error has a much higher probability!
Any thoughts on the mostly copper specimen with composition close to the Philippines 5C Planchet?
I agree that these are almost certainly errors and not experimental in any way. I'll add that the decision to introduce the new (sort of) bronze cents on 1/1/44 was made well before the end of 1943, so there was no need for further experiments in 1944. Which is consistent with RWB's research, which located documention for many experiments in 1942 and 1943, and nothing in 1944.
Edited to add that it's possible that a blank experimental planchet from 1942 or 1943 could have found its way into the press in 1944, but I wouldn't attribute anything as such without some pretty compelling evidence.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Absent any known Mint records regarding their experimental status, and considerating that they are almost identical to the certified ‘on foreign planchets’, I believe that they are not experimental, not patterns, but are off- metals on foreign planchets!
To hypothesize, speculate, suggest, or present all possible senarios is ok in my opinion. And I have done this many times myself in presenting a mint error, pattern or die trial.
But actually designating these as experimental on the insert, without documentation, and being almost identical to other Lincoln Cents on foreign planchets, is something entirely different.
And that is why I published the article in Mint Error News…
I am sure that Fred just accidentally overlooked this, and always has good intentions. But the inserts need to be redone with the proper designation of foreign planchet.
Very interesting thread. After reading it... actually twice... I tend to agree with the determination of 'foreign planchets', rather than patterns. Cheers, RickO
Obviously I have not seen the two pieces in question, but based upon Mr. Byers excellent article I am confident in saying that had these two pieces come through ANACS while I was there (1978-1984) they would have been certified as having been struck on foreign planchets.
Not only did we have the book “Foreign Coins Struck at the U.S. Mints” based upon an original manuscript compiled by Ed Fleischmann from Mint records, we also had Ed Fleischmann for many of those years.
TD
Thank you TD.
The Mint Error News article was published just days after they sold.
Originally I was extremely interested in purchasing both as experimentals, and my bids would have been substantially higher than the prices realized.
Upon researching them, and figuring out that in all probability they were struck on foreign planchets, I obviously did not purchase them.
I debated publishing the article in Mint Error News as ‘coming soon’, which I frequently do, but decided not to influence the auction beforehand.
They are still very exciting off-metals, struck on foreign planchets, full size, mint state, very rare, and from the Fred Weinberg Collection.
I wonder why Fred the "error guy" didn't come to that obvious conclusion and if if influenced PCGS designation as such ?Ownership adds a point or designation even for professionals I guess.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set