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Die Polishing on 1952-S Franklin Halves

Garfield2022Garfield2022 Posts: 71 ✭✭
edited July 26, 2022 2:14PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Anyone here have any information on die polishing problems on 1952-s Franklins. I have one purchased in a set that's BU full luster but the left side of the bell appears to have a large area of polish lines. It looks more proof like in that area as opposed to the rest of the frosty luster on the rest of the coin.

Comments

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,451 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Don't know these or have any info. But looked through images and does it resemble this one?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • Those are the best photos I could take.

  • @lilolme said:
    Don't know these or have any info. But looked through images and does it resemble this one?

    Just posted two pictures but it's hard to detect the shine in the pictures,

  • lilolme- Thanks for your input but I accidently put the wrong date in the subject line. It's a 1952-S. I saw somewhere that the mint was using diamond dust on the dies that year but not sure where that was so I thought others on here would have more information. Putting the wrong date in the subject line was a senior moment!

  • Here is a close up shot of the area on the coin. Looking straight down on the coin it's hard to see. If you hold it at an angle in the light the area where those lines are in this picture looks proof like but only if tilted at 45 degree angle.

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,451 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Again this is not a series that I know so can't contribute to any knowledge of what the mint did or did not do on these or what I have seen previously.

    Below I just blew up your photos to the point of some distortion to see if it would help anyone. I think the photos are fairly good and show the condition.

    The lines look raised to me but then sometime with close up's things invert (especially for me, even lettering occasionally). If you can confirm the lines are all raised, then this would suggest that they are die polish lines.
    Note: there are also planchet roller lines but don't know this series or if those ever occur on Franklins.

    Also the lines are fairly much parallel. They are some heavy looking lines for die polish. Your description of shiny at one angle and then the lines show up at another is they way some die polish lines will look.

    Also I see some contact marks. All contact marks should be over the top of die polish lines since die polish lines would have been there first. This does not confirm die polish as post mint damage lines could have contact marks after them. However, if the lines are on top of any contact marks, that would imply the lines came after the contact mark.

    You mention above about:
    "I saw somewhere that the mint was using diamond dust on the dies that year but not sure where that was so I thought others on here would have more information."

    The question I asked is why would there be these heavy die polish line down in the recess of the die. The only thing I could think of was some significant die damage to repair. Your comment on the polish material could go along.

    I looked and didn't see anything similar but then the lines don't show up under some photo conditions as you noted. Also many might not get submitted to TPG.

    I just can't tell. So not much help on this one but hopefully others will have more.


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    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They are exclusive to the bell design and appear to be PMD.... Cheers, RickO

  • @TomB said:
    My interpretation of the images is that this isn't die polish, but rather a place where the coin rubbed up against something or evidence of a partial wipe.

    Thanks Tom - I'm going to try to post one more pic that when blown up shows the shiny area.

  • Finally was able to get a photo that shows that area when the coin is angled in the light. Anyone still think a wipe or scrape is responsible? I've just never come across a coin where looking straight on the luster is bright and full but at just the right angle in the light you see a proof like patch. I'd also like opinions as to whether you think it would it would FBL at PCGS and or NGC. Thanks for all you guys input it's really appreciated positive or negative. I'm an old time collector with only two submissions to grading services. Once to PMG and once to NGC both experiences were overall positive but mixed as far as my expectations. On this half I'm still undecided as to submit it or not and what might be my best route to take especially considering that area on the bell. Attached are a few more pictures of the coin.

  • Bump

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,451 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can not say what that one is but I used to own a 1921D Morgan that had a local PL surface. That looks very similar to some of the 1921D Morgan dollar reverse. On the 21D's I believe the die was locally polished to maybe remove a defect or clash or something and left a PL or even DMPL surface locally. You will see it in varying degrees. Here are a few from coinfacts and in two areas, about 12 o/c and 2 o/c and they are graded 66, 67.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,725 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Still looks like something scraped against that area of the bell. Often this type of post-mint damage is not apparent at every angle, but when tilted can reveal the damage almost like a milky spot or haze or just lines.

    Who knows, perhaps if you post it again in another month without more images we can have more opinions!

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Garfield2022Garfield2022 Posts: 71 ✭✭
    edited November 19, 2022 8:33PM

    TomB-It's been over a month but here are some better close up photos. Taken with 25x iphone attachment. One of the photos the lines appear quite raised on the upper right side of the Liberty Bell Crack. It also appears to me as if the polishing was done to remove a couple rows of what appears to be lettering of some sort. If you RickO and lilolme would take another look I'd appreciate it. I might have an overactive imagine but I'm not on drugs! Oh yeah! The lettering was still only visible after downloading them into my pictures on Windows 10 and scrolling to see these images enlarged in the viewer. Just viewing these attached images I doubt you'd see the what appears to be a couple rows with lettering unless enlarged even then I can't tell what appears to be spelled but it appears to me some alphabet lettering.

    Thanks again for taking another look at this item.

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with Tom B that’s a bad scrape. A pickpocket leaves less evidence.

  • @Coinscratch said:
    I agree with Tom B that’s a bad scrape. A pickpocket leaves less evidence.

    Coinscratch do you think a scrape will leave the area on the upper bell crack raised as in image Bell Side 6 .jpg above. Attached is a photo of the coin in question.

  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Depends on the direction of the polish lines if that is what they are. Raised lines means work was done to the workin die. Sunken polish lines means work was done to the working hub that created the working die. This may be a clue as to what occurred on your coin. I deducted my reasoning from these two additions to my collection. One really has to mull this over in their head to understand what appears of the incuse or raised image, from the hub to the coin. Being, the hub and coin have raised feature while the die is incused. But the polish lines are in opposition, being raised on a incused working die with the final product, the coin would show sunken polish lines. I let you decide if you have die polish lines or something else.


    Leo

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    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Garfield2022 said
    I've just never come across a coin where looking straight on the luster is bright and full but at just the right angle in the light you see a proof like patch.

    I have! I’ve seen that shiny area a lot on 2005 nickels within a roll. Not even sure what it is but obviously it’s not very rare and doesn’t even matter.

    I don’t know enough about polish lines to speculate but aren’t they typically in the fields and not on the devices?

    Finally, I’m not sure what (raised) you’re talking about on image six.
    Obviously the bell crack is concave.
    And a scrape would leave what looks like raised edges of the gouges.
    Sorry if I’m totally missing something 😂

    do you imagine it’s FBL or just short?

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a wheel mark.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • Garfield2022Garfield2022 Posts: 71 ✭✭
    edited November 20, 2022 12:35AM

    @Coinscratch said:
    @Garfield2022 said
    I've just never come across a coin where looking straight on the luster is bright and full but at just the right angle in the light you see a proof like patch.

    I have! I’ve seen that shiny area a lot on 2005 nickels within a roll. Not even sure what it is but obviously it’s not very rare and doesn’t even matter.

    I don’t know enough about polish lines to speculate but aren’t they typically in the fields and not on the devices?

    Finally, I’m not sure what (raised) you’re talking about on image six.
    Obviously the bell crack is concave.
    And a scrape would leave what looks like raised edges of the gouges.
    Sorry if I’m totally missing something 😂

    do you imagine it’s FBL or just short?

    Just a little short I think I've heard that PCGS requires the bottom two lines and a competitor requires both pairs of lines to be intact but I'm no expert on that. It's just in hand the coin seems kind of puzzling and after taking the 25x images and viewing them enlarged on my monitor it seems even stranger. The upper part of the Liberty Bell crack on the right side of the bell crack is raised in a somewhat waterfall effect. As far as die polish I do believe it's primarily found in the fields but not always. The attached image is number 4 it might be a better view. The other thing I cannot explain is the polished area seems to be trying to eradicate some words or random lettering when enlarged further on my screen. Why there would even be something like that on a Franklin Half die in that area is a big mystery unless someone intentionally defaced it. ChrisH821 and leothelyon both had some interesting comments. Sometimes it seems a waste of time messing with it but before I noticed that area I was going to send it in with a few other items to be graded. That's why I decided to get folks opinion first. I didn't want to waste the grading fees etc. just to be disappointed. I also thought it would be a waste if it wouldn't FBL. In that case I'd just let it remain in the Capital Holder Franklin Set. Yes it's had me a little OCD - I'll admit that since my wife has accused me of it a few times! :-)

  • LEO---Thanks for taking the time to respond and including those images. As far as deciding I'm about ready to flip a coin-Heads Die Polish-Tails Something Else! Past time for this Florida Boy to get to bed! ZZZzzz's Goodnight guys!

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Whats you drinking out there in Florida tonight 😂 that’s my favorite place outside of Texas. Good folks.

    If you like it enough then send it in anyway at least you’ll have a nice pic of it. And you can add a Bonnie and Clyde story to it. Or… Then I used it to pry open the door to the spaceship that’s where the lines came from :D

  • @Coinscratch said:
    Whats you drinking out there in Florida tonight 😂 that’s my favorite place outside of Texas. Good folks.

    If you like it enough then send it in anyway at least you’ll have a nice pic of it. And you can add a Bonnie and Clyde story to it. Or… Then I used it to pry open the door to the spaceship that’s where the lines came from :D

    Drinking just good ole SWEET TEA Coinscratch y'all live in Texas? If you live in Texas what city? We lived in Fort Worth 13 years then settled here in Florida way back in 1999. I prefer Texas but my wife prefers Florida so this might be the answer to your next question! :-) :-) :-)

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Spring Texas, and my wife is from Destin and she wants to retire there so someday I’ll have to leave the Lonestar state behind just like you.. and for the same reason, my lovely wife lol.

  • @Coinscratch said:
    Spring Texas, and my wife is from Destin and she wants to retire there so someday I’ll have to leave the Lonestar state behind just like you.. and for the same reason, my lovely wife lol.

    Yep! That's how it works! Texas roads are much better than here in my opinion. If you're familiar with the Dallas-Arlington-Fort Worth area and aware of how crowded Arlington is now pick a small city to live in. I'm in Lakeland and sandwiched in between Orlando and Tampa. Twenty two years ago it was nice but it's getting crowded and I-4 both directions is risky business unless you drive a tank. If you ever come this way to the Florida Summer F.U.N show let me know.

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2022 9:02AM

    Coin is damaged. Sorry OP.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • @DelawareDoons said:
    Coin is damaged. Sorry OP.

    Bringing tears to my eyes! If that be true I'll bet I'm more sorry than you! :'(

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,451 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Garfield2022 I think very good macro photos.
    You mentioned photo 6 and I enlarged it. I put an arrow on it pointing down across the 'ridgeline' on the bell. This enlargement is way more than anything normal. Notice all the irregularity there and some to the right (not in line with the lines). It looks like moved metal. The apparent raised line(s) could be because the adjacent area has been scraped away. Also if you go to your photo 2 the lines appear to scrape across the top of the bell lines (missing in between).

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,758 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One can always send it in for grading... then you will know for sure.

    ----- kj
  • SAM5969SAM5969 Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2022 10:00AM

    It’s def FBL but it’s also almost def from a wipe or similar. I send a lot of bulk submissions of mid century modern from hundreds of original pre-64 BU rolls and pre -80 Pennie’s and nickels and I can safely say 95% it won’t grade straight which is unfortunate as FBL on the 52-S is scarce and basically a $200+ coin in 63FBL.
    Still a nice coin

    The reason I’m even looking at this post is i was just looking at my one original roll of 1952-S halves. Of the 20 coins, probably 4 are lock 65 and there are probably 4 that are borderline FBL. This roll was courtesy of Michael Sullivan of Green Brook Coins in Jersey from a couple years ago. I always torment myself in whether to break a roll up or keep it intact. Certainly getting this roll graded will probably be a net positive in terms of dollar value but the value of the intact original roll to me, is priceless and quite a rare find
    I have over 50 bank wrapped Franklin half rolls which include a box of 1954 from chase Manhattan bank, a 52-D, a couple 1955, and a ton 1957-1963. I also have 13 double rolls ($20 face), including a tails tails S mint roll which was sold to me from a long known contact on the west coast under the premise he bought it 20 years earlier as an unknown S mint date
    Safe to assume it’s a 1954-S roll but I continue to not unwrap any of my bank wrapped rolls and exclusively use the tubed rolls when I’m considering a bulk (or non bulk) submission in my continuing “quest for 67”.

    My most recent submission included the 5 finest quarters from an original 1959 quarter roll where all 40 coins had a type B reverse. All 5 came back as expected with the FS-901. I certainly was expecting 1 or 2 MS66, but they all came back a disappointing 65
    The value jump for the type B reverse happens from 65 ($55) to 66 ($300) then to 67 is $1800 (less than 5 graded)

    imageimage

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