It will also affect people like me with a bunch of slabbed coins from back in the day before chips and Trueviews existed if I ever decided to sell my coins. It more or less would make people afraid to buy them online using pictures unless I were to reholder them with chips and trueviews if these fake ones become too prevalent
I'm shocked when I see a current holder without TV...it's $5!
At the same time, to protect their business credibility and the market PCGS should include this very basic imaging as part of their grading fees.
I disagree. All new holders do contain the NFC technology. No one needs hundreds of thousands of photos of modern ASEs and the like, even if their photography team was several times as large as it is now (which is what would be needed to accommodate the additional volume).
@pocketchange we are in agreement that the True View is not needed for security with NFC technology. As a buyer of PCGS holders, I would like a consistency of photos. When looking at a online photo from different sellers (eBay, auction house, dealer website, etc.), the consistency of photos leaves a lot to be desired. If all future classic coins had a Ture View photo, it would help when purchasing PCGS plastic online.
I still prefer TrueView even with NFC because I do a lot of mail order and my preference is not to even transact and receive a coin that's fake. I'm not sure if some holders fail the NFC test, but I wouldn't be surprised if some percentage of fakes do. For mail order, I still use TrueViews to help make a buy decision while NFC is nice to have.
I agree TrueView isn't necessary with NFC when evaluating the coin in hand at a B&M or show.
@ReadyFireAim said:
This is old news.
The counterfeiters have been particularly interested in OGH/CAC because there are no TrueViews.
Collectors think they are getting a "pre-gradflation" holder & a bean.
All the numbers match & the code will scan.
All the coins I've seen are obvious but that doesn't keep people from buying them.
There is a really long thread about this over at CoinTalk.
I wonder how many forum members are directly affected by this?
There can certainly be an indirect effect if the entire market is affected, but I wonder how many people here buy the kinds of coins that are targeted.
I think the even bigger threat is to people like me who are still learning to grade and are drawn to the supposed security of the TPG slabs and beans... They can be very alluring to novices and this is all quite disconcerting.
If I spend thousands or even hundreds on a coin and later want to sell it to only find out its a fake, that will crush us smaller investors/collectors, and could cause people like me to shy away from what would otherwise be a legitimate sale from more established collectors like many here.
Ultimately as I see it, it will hurt the smaller guys first, but if it becomes too prolific a problem could hurt the bigger guys ultimately by shrinking the overall market through trust concerns/issues. Just like I found out that the gold Indians are the most counterfeited coin and now am much more leery of purchasing them unless they are slabbed or its a reliable source...
Lots of things can hurt the smaller guys. When I first started collecting, I went online to find communities of experts I can learn from and ended up here and a few other places.
@Mr_Spud said:
It will also affect people like me with a bunch of slabbed coins from back in the day before chips and Trueviews existed if I ever decided to sell my coins. It more or less would make people afraid to buy them online using pictures unless I were to reholder them with chips and trueviews if these fake ones become too prevalent
Agree. It doesn't affect me too much because I try to avoid coins in that situation to begin with so I don't have many, but if one already has them, you definitely have a point. It's become a cost of doing business due to rising counterfeits
@Mr_Spud said:
It will also affect people like me with a bunch of slabbed coins from back in the day before chips and Trueviews existed if I ever decided to sell my coins. It more or less would make people afraid to buy them online using pictures unless I were to reholder them with chips and trueviews if these fake ones become too prevalent
Gets back to buying/ selling the coin, not the holder...
It takes some time and experience to authenticate and grade a coin; now have to consider authenticating the holder as well for ones with no on-line reference images.
@ReadyFireAim said:
This is old news.
The counterfeiters have been particularly interested in OGH/CAC because there are no TrueViews.
Collectors think they are getting a "pre-gradflation" holder & a bean.
All the numbers match & the code will scan.
All the coins I've seen are obvious but that doesn't keep people from buying them.
There is a really long thread about this over at CoinTalk.
Link please. I've not yet seen a passable counterfeit OGH in years besides the already-known fake rattlers that caused PCGS to move away from rattler holders, and the only one of those I've seen in the past 5 years was in a collection where the owner knew and purchased it as a fake holder.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
One must do some risk assessment. Risk limit? Just buy bullion coins? Sell out of Classic us coins? Stay away from ogh? Or don’t buy US Classic coins period.
Really scary / the fakes are very convincing. I can see many buying them out of greed like auc win way below bid or guy thinking he struck a bonanza buying some from his table at a show offered to him at his price back of bid. Could this cause a market crash, implosion?
Has anyone come across fake CAC stickers on authentic slabs? This eBay listing caught my eye because I’ve never seen a CAC sticker applied crooked (although I’m sure it happens). When I looked the cert# up on www.caccoin.com, no match was found. The coin does match one auctioned on Heritage in 2018, and at the time there was no CAC sticker.
So either this is a fake sticker, or there was an error at CAC that resulted in this coin not being entered into the database. Which do you think is more likely?
I've been (accurately, beginner that I am) admonished for commenting on grade level from photos , so I'll turn it around: does it look like MS67 in hand? No TrueView images on the cert lookup with pcgs to compare to.
@waisaacs said:
I've been (accurately, beginner that I am) admonished for commenting on grade level from photos
Why have you been admonished? People do it all the time here with the GTG threads.
I pointed out something I ran across on ebay that looked inconsistent to me, possibly earlier in this thread, and the general feedback was that the photo wasn't good enough to work with.
The CAC stickers has 3 thing going against it to be genuine.
1) I have never seen one with circles showing up in the photo.
2) No online verification from CAC.
3) The placement of the sticker.
@slider23 said:
The CAC stickers has 3 thing going against it to be genuine.
1) I have never seen one with circles showing up in the photo.
2) No online verification from CAC.
3) The placement of the sticker.
Some people were questioning whether counterfeit stickers would be worth the effort for counterfeiters. Seems like they are worth the effort.
@P0CKETCHANGE said:
Has anyone come across fake CAC stickers on authentic slabs? This eBay listing caught my eye because I’ve never seen a CAC sticker applied crooked (although I’m sure it happens). When I looked the cert# up on www.caccoin.com, no match was found. The coin does match one auctioned on Heritage in 2018, and at the time there was no CAC sticker.
So either this is a fake sticker, or there was an error at CAC that resulted in this coin not being entered into the database. Which do you think is more likely?
That just looks like somebody peeled one off and tried sticking it on another slab.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Comments
does anyone here have one/some of these that can do quality macro imaging?
It will also affect people like me with a bunch of slabbed coins from back in the day before chips and Trueviews existed if I ever decided to sell my coins. It more or less would make people afraid to buy them online using pictures unless I were to reholder them with chips and trueviews if these fake ones become too prevalent
Mr_Spud
I still prefer TrueView even with NFC because I do a lot of mail order and my preference is not to even transact and receive a coin that's fake. I'm not sure if some holders fail the NFC test, but I wouldn't be surprised if some percentage of fakes do. For mail order, I still use TrueViews to help make a buy decision while NFC is nice to have.
I agree TrueView isn't necessary with NFC when evaluating the coin in hand at a B&M or show.
Lots of things can hurt the smaller guys. When I first started collecting, I went online to find communities of experts I can learn from and ended up here and a few other places.
Agree. It doesn't affect me too much because I try to avoid coins in that situation to begin with so I don't have many, but if one already has them, you definitely have a point. It's become a cost of doing business due to rising counterfeits
Gets back to buying/ selling the coin, not the holder...
It takes some time and experience to authenticate and grade a coin; now have to consider authenticating the holder as well for ones with no on-line reference images.
Link please. I've not yet seen a passable counterfeit OGH in years besides the already-known fake rattlers that caused PCGS to move away from rattler holders, and the only one of those I've seen in the past 5 years was in a collection where the owner knew and purchased it as a fake holder.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
One must do some risk assessment. Risk limit? Just buy bullion coins? Sell out of Classic us coins? Stay away from ogh? Or don’t buy US Classic coins period.
Really scary / the fakes are very convincing. I can see many buying them out of greed like auc win way below bid or guy thinking he struck a bonanza buying some from his table at a show offered to him at his price back of bid. Could this cause a market crash, implosion?
If deal seems to good be true……
fwiw. i have a few slabs from last? year that have those numbers on the bottom and they are the same on each slab, from the same order.
so for whatever use it may be, not only do cert numbers ties coins together but those slab numbers as well.
shield front and the mouse click image on the back of the insert.
Counterfeiting is a game...
Has anyone come across fake CAC stickers on authentic slabs? This eBay listing caught my eye because I’ve never seen a CAC sticker applied crooked (although I’m sure it happens). When I looked the cert# up on www.caccoin.com, no match was found. The coin does match one auctioned on Heritage in 2018, and at the time there was no CAC sticker.
So either this is a fake sticker, or there was an error at CAC that resulted in this coin not being entered into the database. Which do you think is more likely?
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
IMO, I think it's a fake CAC sticker. I would have to believe that JA and his crew wouldn't make this mistake.
JMO
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
I've been (accurately, beginner that I am) admonished for commenting on grade level from photos , so I'll turn it around: does it look like MS67 in hand? No TrueView images on the cert lookup with pcgs to compare to.
Why have you been admonished? People do it all the time here with the GTG threads.
Just noticed you said ebay listing, so not in hand...
I pointed out something I ran across on ebay that looked inconsistent to me, possibly earlier in this thread, and the general feedback was that the photo wasn't good enough to work with.
The CAC stickers has 3 thing going against it to be genuine.
1) I have never seen one with circles showing up in the photo.
2) No online verification from CAC.
3) The placement of the sticker.
Some people were questioning whether counterfeit stickers would be worth the effort for counterfeiters. Seems like they are worth the effort.
That just looks like somebody peeled one off and tried sticking it on another slab.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
If I were going to apply a "fake" sticker I certainly wouldn't put it on crooked...
Listing was removed...