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The Newer Fake PCGS holders are one of the latest Hobby Threats...

burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

It doesn't help that they target good certs with no on-line images.

The latest deceptions hitting collectors and Dealers alike are under-graded genuine coins in counterfeit PCGS holders. Without getting into the specific "tells" here I will show images of a particular recent high priced example compared to the researched genuine one sold in a 2020 GC auction.

The lower grade coin in bad holder:

The genuine holder/ graded example:

The slabbed comparisons:

And the labels:

More comparisons:

There have been others posted in this forum- it is truly a jungle out there B) ...

Best, Jack.

«13

Comments

  • KliaoKliao Posts: 5,456 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just by glancing at it, I would have thought it was real. Wow.

    Young Numismatist/collector
    75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
    instagram.com/klnumismatics

  • WilliamFWilliamF Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Kliao said:
    Just by glancing at it, I would have thought it was real. Wow.

    I think it is a genuine example but not the one that was originally in that holder, with the right/wrong coin this could completely compromise the respectable TPG's reputation for quality control... scary!

    @burfle23 said:
    The latest deceptions hitting collectors and Dealers alike are under-graded genuine coins in counterfeit PCGS holders.

    ."It's a dangerous business... going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" -JRR Tolkien_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Outstanding BST transactions as a seller, buyer and trader with: ----- mustanggt, Kliao, claudewill87, MWallace, paesan, mpbuck82, moursund, basetsb, lordmarcovan, JWP, Coin hunter 4, COINS MAKE CENTS, PerryHall, Aspie_Rocco, Braddick, DBSTrader2, SanctionII, Histman, The_Dinosaur_Man, jesbroken, CentSearcher ------ANA Member #3214817

  • MS66MS66 Posts: 200 ✭✭✭

    @DelawareDoons said:
    It was just a matter of time before they cleaned up the font and placement issues. There's yet another reason why I prefer old holders, and will only buy new PCGS holders with TV's. I can pick out fake coins easy, but real coins in a high quality fake holder? Eh...

    I've begun to wonder how many fake slabs are in my collection. But I don't want to look. This is one more reason to stop buying coins. Or is it?

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thefinn said:

    @alaura22 said:

    @MS66 said:

    @DelawareDoons said:
    It was just a matter of time before they cleaned up the font and placement issues. There's yet another reason why I prefer old holders, and will only buy new PCGS holders with TV's. I can pick out fake coins easy, but real coins in a high quality fake holder? Eh...


    I've begun to wonder how many fake slabs are in my collection. But I don't want to look. This is one more reason to stop buying coins. Or is it?

    Or
    Just another reason to buy CAC stickered coins!

    If they can counterfeit a slab, they can counterfeit a sticker.

    I guess but now they have two things they have to deal with

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2022 5:13AM

    Sorry, wrong images...

  • P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:

    @alaura22 said:

    @MS66 said:

    @DelawareDoons said:
    It was just a matter of time before they cleaned up the font and placement issues. There's yet another reason why I prefer old holders, and will only buy new PCGS holders with TV's. I can pick out fake coins easy, but real coins in a high quality fake holder? Eh...


    I've begun to wonder how many fake slabs are in my collection. But I don't want to look. This is one more reason to stop buying coins. Or is it?

    Or
    Just another reason to buy CAC stickered coins!

    These are both the same coin, as far as I can tell. Are you suggesting that they aren’t?

    Nothing is as expensive as free money.

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2022 6:09AM

    Sorry for any confusion- same coin thought to be an overgraded example in a counterfeit holder sold by the same group of sellers (example on the right).

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow.... Getting really tough out there.... @burfle23 Thanks for the comparative pictures. Could you PM me all the PUP's? Cheers, RickO

  • JBNJBN Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That holder looks new enough to have the etched six character code. Perhaps PCGS could add a 'holder verification' entry field on the cert verification page, where a user could enter the code from the holder.
    Earlier holders don't have the code. PCGS could offer a 'coding service' where they could etch the characters on the older holder.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:
    Sorry for any confusion- same coin thought to be an overgraded example in a counterfeit holder sold by the same group of sellers (example on the right).

    Is the seller the only indication that this might be a overgraded coin?

    Some sellers mix up good and bad coins in their inventory to throw people off.

  • slider23slider23 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭✭

    It appears that this counterfeiter may also be making the CAC sticker.

    Sticker from 1951 S Franklin

    Sticker from Genuine PCGS Holder

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2022 8:11AM

    Yes, there are 100% fake CAC stickers out there. I let them know about it a couple months ago.

    They use low feedback ebay accounts, very similar lighting, and a fake PCGS holder with possibly a fake CAC sticker.

    They're probably reading this thread at some point, for what it is worth.

    More stuff, same MO;

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/334471646587


    https://www.ebay.com/itm/384941110119


    I have this pic saved because its particularly egregious... This is how they started, common dates, inflated grades, fake CAC stickers... Now they've moved onto better dates it seems.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • slider23slider23 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭✭

    There must be hundreds of these fakes sold. Here is another on for seller gradecoin99:

    GC sold Genuine. Nice Example

    gradecoin99 Fake

  • slider23slider23 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭✭

    The font on the fake CAC stickers are the same on the 1901 O Morgan and 1951 S Franklin.

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭✭✭

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is definitely concerning and a reminder that—where there is a big market with money to be made—counterfeiting will happen (coins, sports cards, luxury fashion, etc.).

    IMO, there is responsibility on all parties when transacting in the marketplace. “Caveat emptor” to the buyer, being educated and buying the coin and not the holder. The dealer community to be aware and vigilant of counterfeit slabs. Our hosts to innovate, as they have with Gold Shield, TrueViews, RFIDs, etc. Law enforcement to investigate fraudulent activity.

    Be careful out there folks.

    Nothing is as expensive as free money.

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • basetsbbasetsb Posts: 508 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2022 9:45AM

    Deleted.

    @basetsb_coins on Instagram

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This account was NARU'ed and the listings are gone but still show up in search.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's what I'd do; Exactly what PCGS already does with European-submitted Secure coins.

    EuroViews!

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • UpGrayeddUpGrayedd Posts: 495 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow, that's some pretty troubling stuff right there. Thanks @burfle23 for sounding the alarm.

    I agree with @DelawareDoons, it would be very helpful if PCGS would start imaging all slabs moving forward.

    Philippians 4:4-7

  • Elcontador1Elcontador1 Posts: 98 ✭✭✭

    In no particular order:
    Look up the slab # and see if it's the same coin
    Know how to grade
    Only deal with people you believe to be reputable

  • AercusAercus Posts: 381 ✭✭✭✭

    It would be nice if pcgs would let us look up the hidden alphanumeric on the side of the holder and verify whether it is correct (kind of like how a checksum works). Yes it would only work after you buy the coin, if we’re taking online, but it would still be helpful.

    Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale

  • privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Question is are they working on counterfeiting the chip yet.

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2022 10:43AM

    @Aercus said:
    It would be nice if pcgs would let us look up the hidden alphanumeric on the side of the holder and verify whether it is correct (kind of like how a checksum works). Yes it would only work after you buy the coin, if we’re taking online, but it would still be helpful.

    As I recall pcgs has commented that this number is a manufactures number and not part of pcgs.
    .
    .
    Edit: To correct my comment above as my memory failed me (again). Here are the previous threads and pcgs did not comment about the slab numbers which appear to be lot numbers (either mfg or pcgs).

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1055671/so-what-s-the-serial-type-number-etched-onto-the-bottom-of-slabs-mean

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1009420/interesting-alpha-code-on-slab-edge#latest
    .
    .
    .

    @privatecoin said:
    Question is are they working on counterfeiting the chip yet.

    In the previous thread pcgs claimed that the chip can not be counterfeited.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13265188/#Comment_13265188

    However, there are millions of non-chip holders in the market place to counterfeit.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • AercusAercus Posts: 381 ✭✭✭✭

    @lilolme said:

    @Aercus said:
    It would be nice if pcgs would let us look up the hidden alphanumeric on the side of the holder and verify whether it is correct (kind of like how a checksum works). Yes it would only work after you buy the coin, if we’re taking online, but it would still be helpful.

    As I recall pcgs has commented that this number is a manufactures number and not part of pcgs.

    @privatecoin said:
    Question is are they working on counterfeiting the chip yet.

    In the previous thread pcgs claimed that the chip can not be counterfeited.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13265188/#Comment_13265188

    However, there are millions of non-chip holders in the market place to counterfeit.

    @lilolme said:

    @Aercus said:
    It would be nice if pcgs would let us look up the hidden alphanumeric on the side of the holder and verify whether it is correct (kind of like how a checksum works). Yes it would only work after you buy the coin, if we’re taking online, but it would still be helpful.

    As I recall pcgs has commented that this number is a manufactures number and not part of pcgs.

    Was not aware of that. Unfortunate! Appreciate the info :)

    Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale

  • RelaxnRelaxn Posts: 866 ✭✭✭✭

    Masseto wines... Ornellaia has been taking anti counterfeiting measures for a long time.
    Maybe PCGS can take a page from this book.
    https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2010/03/super-tuscan-turns-to-anti-counterfeiting-technology/

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,394 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2022 12:17PM

    @dcarr said:

    So the rare dates are being faked by either "photoshop" image tricks, or by sandwiching different coins together (I assume the latter).

    "Sandwiching" different coins together is nothing new. In the pre-third-party grading service era, a coin dealer tried to sell me a mid-circulated grade 1916-D dime in a Capital Plastic Coin Holder. I insisted on taking the holder apart. There was a 1916 dime with a 1941-D dime behind it. The dealer looked surprised. LOL.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2022 2:29PM

    @PerryHall said:

    @dcarr said:

    So the rare dates are being faked by either "photoshop" image tricks, or by sandwiching different coins together (I assume the latter).

    "Sandwiching" different coins together is nothing new. In the pre-third-party grading service era, a coin dealer tried to sell me a mid-circulated grade 1916-D dime in a Capital Plastic Coin Holder. I insisted on taking the holder apart. There was a 1916 dime with a 1941-D dime behind it. The dealer looked surprised. LOL.

    This is the same 'technique' identified by @ifthevamzarockin in the previous thread. A little bit of a pattern.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13265681/#Comment_13265681

    Edit:
    @Aercus
    I found this thread on it but I see pcgs didn't comment on this one.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1055671/so-what-s-the-serial-type-number-etched-onto-the-bottom-of-slabs-mean

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:

    The C3 reverse hub was used from 1878-1900 (for Philadelphia Mint coins), and from 1879-1901 (for New Orleans and San Francisco Mint coins). The C4 reverse was used from 1900-1904 (on Philadelphia Mint coins), and from 1901-1904 (on New Orleans and San Francisco Mint coins).

    According to my book and VAM World website:

    The SF mint produce both C3 and C4 reverses for the years 1900 and 1901.
    Here is the VAM source for the 1900 S.
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1900-S_VAMs
    And one 1900 S VAM with C4
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1900-S_VAM-18

    The Philadelphia mint produce both C3 and C4 reverses for the years 1900 and 1901.
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1901-P_VAMs
    And one 1901 P VAM with C3
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1901-P_VAM-1

    The New Orleans mint is a little tricky. While they are not all technically fully C4 for 1902 they do appear to all have the noted C4 wing gap. (So to me a C4). However, they identify a C4/C3 where the difference is a C4 reverse but with two berries like a C3. (Again to me a C4.)
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1902-O_VAMs
    And the page for the C4 versus C4/C3 versus C3
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/C4-C4C3-C3_Comps

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • retirednowretirednow Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Relaxn said:
    Masseto wines... Ornellaia has been taking anti counterfeiting measures for a long time.
    Maybe PCGS can take a page from this book.
    https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2010/03/super-tuscan-turns-to-anti-counterfeiting-technology/

    I thought that is what PCGS has done with their secure holder ?
    https://www.pcgs.com/security

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lilolme said:

    @dcarr said:

    The C3 reverse hub was used from 1878-1900 (for Philadelphia Mint coins), and from 1879-1901 (for New Orleans and San Francisco Mint coins). The C4 reverse was used from 1900-1904 (on Philadelphia Mint coins), and from 1901-1904 (on New Orleans and San Francisco Mint coins).

    According to my book and VAM World website:

    The SF mint produce both C3 and C4 reverses for the years 1900 and 1901.
    Here is the VAM source for the 1900 S.
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1900-S_VAMs
    And one 1900 S VAM with C4
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1900-S_VAM-18

    The Philadelphia mint produce both C3 and C4 reverses for the years 1900 and 1901.
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1901-P_VAMs
    And one 1901 P VAM with C3
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1901-P_VAM-1

    The New Orleans mint is a little tricky. While they are not all technically fully C4 for 1902 they do appear to all have the noted C4 wing gap. (So to me a C4). However, they identify a C4/C3 where the difference is a C4 reverse but with two berries like a C3. (Again to me a C4.)
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1902-O_VAMs
    And the page for the C4 versus C4/C3 versus C3
    http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/C4-C4C3-C3_Comps

    Yes, some of those called "C4" are actually "C4" hubbed over "C3", but I consider those to be a C4 classification since they exhibit the wide neck-wing gap.

    Also, I referred to the slated arrow feather and narrow neck-wing gap as "C3", but technically this group is comprised of "C1", "C2", and "C3" (all are similar and have the narrow neck-wing gap).

    I was not aware of the (apparently rare) 1901-[P] with narrow neck-wing gap ("C3" hub type).
    I was also not aware of the (apparently scarce) 1900-S with wide neck-wing gap ("C4" hub type).

    Thanks for the information. I have corrected my reverse hub chart:
    moonlightmint.com/VAM_privately_made/11.htm

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,599 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:
    It doesn't help that they target good certs with no on-line images.

    The latest deceptions hitting collectors and Dealers alike are under-graded genuine coins in counterfeit PCGS holders. Without getting into the specific "tells" here I will show images of a particular recent high priced example compared to the researched genuine one sold in a 2020 GC auction.

    The lower grade coin in bad holder:

    The genuine holder/ graded example:

    The slabbed comparisons:

    And the labels:

    More comparisons:

    There have been others posted in this forum- it is truly a jungle out there B) ...

    Best, Jack.

    The bar code was printed askance as well.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2022 7:33PM

    The bar code looks like a pretty good match on this example.
    On others we have discussed the bar code is often way off.

    The coin in the bad holder could be one of the Chinese fakes, struck with an inappropriate reverse die.

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another unfortunately purchased by my same dealer friend; he did get authorization to return this one...

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:
    Another unfortunately purchased by my same dealer friend; he did get authorization to return this one...

    Good to know.

    It has a sticker too.

    We’re looking at silver here but I wonder how many gold coins are like this.

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