@CaptHenway said:
I remain skeptical that the "1929" punching is anything other than post-1933 graffiti, such as I could do myself with the number punches I own, but I admit that I "know" nothing.
Ditto with the "JO" counterstamps. If it said "TD" I would suspect myself, but it does not.
TD
When I look at mine, I see the same spotty toning pattern down in the "1929" characters that I see in the other markings.
That is not a toning pattern that can be faked (and why would anyone fake it even if they could ?). There are auction records for these going back many years. So if the "1929" was added after the fact, it wasn't done much later than 1933.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
I remain skeptical that the "1929" punching is anything other than post-1933 graffiti, such as I could do myself with the number punches I own, but I admit that I "know" nothing.
Ditto with the "JO" counterstamps. If it said "TD" I would suspect myself, but it does not.
TD
When I look at mine, I see the same spotty toning pattern down in the "1929" characters that I see in the other markings.
That is not a toning pattern that can be faked (and why would anyone fake it even if they could ?). There are auction records for these going back many years. So if the "1929" was added after the fact, it wasn't done much later than 1933.
@JP_Coins said:
Hey all — a second “J.O.” example was just posted on eBay and is up for auction. Now I’m a bit confused. That’s 2 examples that are now confirmed. Both graded by NGC.
Same seller, as well. Could this be a true variety now that 2 examples have come up for auction?
Seems like the seller had 3, all from the same ATS submission. Interestingly, one of them has "JO" on the other side.
I picked up both of the 2 other specimens as they are an interesting way to collect these.
Here are PhotoVision's of two of the "JO" pieces, with "JO" on each side.
@JP_Coins said:
Hey all — a second “J.O.” example was just posted on eBay and is up for auction. Now I’m a bit confused. That’s 2 examples that are now confirmed. Both graded by NGC.
Same seller, as well. Could this be a true variety now that 2 examples have come up for auction?
Seems like the seller had 3, all from the same ATS submission. Interestingly, one of them has "JO" on the other side.
I picked up both of the 2 other specimens as they are an interesting way to collect these.
Here are PhotoVision's of two of the "JO" pieces, with "JO" on each side.
Seems like only 3 specimens are known?
I think you’re exactly right. I spoke with the seller a bit and he advised he had all 3 but wasn’t aware of any others. I have the final specimen. So, between you and I, it appears we have all 3!
@JP_Coins said:
Hey all — a second “J.O.” example was just posted on eBay and is up for auction. Now I’m a bit confused. That’s 2 examples that are now confirmed. Both graded by NGC.
Same seller, as well. Could this be a true variety now that 2 examples have come up for auction?
Seems like the seller had 3, all from the same ATS submission. Interestingly, one of them has "JO" on the other side.
I picked up both of the 2 other specimens as they are an interesting way to collect these.
Here are PhotoVision's of two of the "JO" pieces, with "JO" on each side.
Seems like only 3 specimens are known?
I think you’re exactly right. I spoke with the seller a bit and he advised he had all 3 but wasn’t aware of any others. I have the final specimen. So, between you and I, it appears we have all 3!
Glad you reached out to him! Was he able to provide any info on where he got these from or the history of these?
@JP_Coins said:
Hey all — a second “J.O.” example was just posted on eBay and is up for auction. Now I’m a bit confused. That’s 2 examples that are now confirmed. Both graded by NGC.
Same seller, as well. Could this be a true variety now that 2 examples have come up for auction?
Seems like the seller had 3, all from the same ATS submission. Interestingly, one of them has "JO" on the other side.
I picked up both of the 2 other specimens as they are an interesting way to collect these.
Here are PhotoVision's of two of the "JO" pieces, with "JO" on each side.
Seems like only 3 specimens are known?
I think you’re exactly right. I spoke with the seller a bit and he advised he had all 3 but wasn’t aware of any others. I have the final specimen. So, between you and I, it appears we have all 3!
Glad you reached out to him! Was he able to provide any info on where he got these from or the history of these?
He unfortunately had very little information. He advised he bought all 3 in an estate lot. Beyond that, he knew nothing else. So, they still certainly remain quite the mystery!
@JP_Coins said:
Hey all — a second “J.O.” example was just posted on eBay and is up for auction. Now I’m a bit confused. That’s 2 examples that are now confirmed. Both graded by NGC.
Same seller, as well. Could this be a true variety now that 2 examples have come up for auction?
Seems like the seller had 3, all from the same ATS submission. Interestingly, one of them has "JO" on the other side.
I picked up both of the 2 other specimens as they are an interesting way to collect these.
Here are PhotoVision's of two of the "JO" pieces, with "JO" on each side.
Seems like only 3 specimens are known?
I think you’re exactly right. I spoke with the seller a bit and he advised he had all 3 but wasn’t aware of any others. I have the final specimen. So, between you and I, it appears we have all 3!
Glad you reached out to him! Was he able to provide any info on where he got these from or the history of these?
He unfortunately had very little information. He advised he bought all 3 in an estate lot. Beyond that, he knew nothing else. So, they still certainly remain quite the mystery!
Do you know when he purchased them?
The only related person with J O initials would be Jacque Ostheimer who passed away in 2021.
@JP_Coins said:
Hey all — a second “J.O.” example was just posted on eBay and is up for auction. Now I’m a bit confused. That’s 2 examples that are now confirmed. Both graded by NGC.
Same seller, as well. Could this be a true variety now that 2 examples have come up for auction?
Seems like the seller had 3, all from the same ATS submission. Interestingly, one of them has "JO" on the other side.
I picked up both of the 2 other specimens as they are an interesting way to collect these.
Here are PhotoVision's of two of the "JO" pieces, with "JO" on each side.
Seems like only 3 specimens are known?
I think you’re exactly right. I spoke with the seller a bit and he advised he had all 3 but wasn’t aware of any others. I have the final specimen. So, between you and I, it appears we have all 3!
Glad you reached out to him! Was he able to provide any info on where he got these from or the history of these?
He unfortunately had very little information. He advised he bought all 3 in an estate lot. Beyond that, he knew nothing else. So, they still certainly remain quite the mystery!
Do you know when he purchased them?
The only related person with J O initials would be Jacque Ostheimer who passed away in 2021.
Does any Al Overton relative have a first name that starts with "J" ?
@JP_Coins said:
Hey all — a second “J.O.” example was just posted on eBay and is up for auction. Now I’m a bit confused. That’s 2 examples that are now confirmed. Both graded by NGC.
Same seller, as well. Could this be a true variety now that 2 examples have come up for auction?
Seems like the seller had 3, all from the same ATS submission. Interestingly, one of them has "JO" on the other side.
I picked up both of the 2 other specimens as they are an interesting way to collect these.
Here are PhotoVision's of two of the "JO" pieces, with "JO" on each side.
Seems like only 3 specimens are known?
I think you’re exactly right. I spoke with the seller a bit and he advised he had all 3 but wasn’t aware of any others. I have the final specimen. So, between you and I, it appears we have all 3!
Glad you reached out to him! Was he able to provide any info on where he got these from or the history of these?
He unfortunately had very little information. He advised he bought all 3 in an estate lot. Beyond that, he knew nothing else. So, they still certainly remain quite the mystery!
Do you know when he purchased them?
The only related person with J O initials would be Jacque Ostheimer who passed away in 2021.
Does any Al Overton relative have a first name that starts with "J" ?
I haven't seen any only use "J.O" on his FindAGrave entry, but it does show that his wife's middle name starts with "J": Canzada Johnson Overton. Johnson is his wife's maiden name so that could be an interesting connection. She passed away in 1997.
@yosclimber posted this family tree in the Al Overton thread which indicates Al's father-in-law's name is Jesse Oliver so for Overton we have the following:
"Johnson-Overton", the surnames for Al's wife and his own
"Jesse Oliver", Overton's father-in-law
Did Al do anything numismatic with his wife or father-in-law?
Granted, these may be stretches but it's something and not nothing.
And if you are going to stamp something, these Pedley-Ryan Dollars are a good candidate as they are more common than other pieces and have simple designs.
@Zoins said: @yosclimber posted this family tree in the Al Overton thread which indicates Al's father-in-law's name is Jesse Oliver so for Overton we have the following:
"Johnson-Overton", the surnames for Al's wife and his own
"Jesse Oliver", Overton's father-in-law
Did Al do anything numismatic with his wife or father-in-law?
Granted, these may be stretches but it's something and not nothing.
@CaptHenway said:
I never met Al, though while I was at ANACS his widow occasionally attended one of the coin clubs I belonged to. We were introduced by Bill Henderson.
At ANACS I liked to attribute all of the bust halves going through, but of course all I had was the dot-screened photos in the book. Then I learned that Mrs. Overton still had all of the negatives for the photos in the book, so I asked her, in the presence of Bill, if the ANA could borrow the negatives and make one set of glossy prints of them strictly for attribution purposes. She snapped back "No! I'll never get them back!"
The information in this thread has been collected and synthesized into a reference article now. Much thanks to @dcarr, @JP_Coins, @JRay123, and others for collaborating on this article!
The definitive history of these is yet to be known, but the theories and support/discussion is presented for each.
@Zoins said:
The information in this thread has been collected and synthesized into a reference article now. Much thanks to @dcarr, @JP_Coins, @JRay123, and others for collaborating on this article!
The definitive history of these is yet to be known, but the theories and support/discussion is presented for each.
Absolutely wonderful, incredibly well-written/researched article, @Zoins. This gives significant context behind these pieces and is an excellent read. — Thank you for giving back to and enriching the numismatic community with additional historical references that’ll be used for years to come!
@Zoins said:
The information in this thread has been collected and synthesized into a reference article now. Much thanks to @dcarr, @JP_Coins, @JRay123, and others for collaborating on this article!
The definitive history of these is yet to be known, but the theories and support/discussion is presented for each.
Absolutely wonderful, incredibly well-written/researched article, @Zoins. This gives significant context behind these pieces and is an excellent read. — Thank you for giving back to and enriching the numismatic community with additional historical references that’ll be used for years to come!
Thanks @JP_Coins! It's great to work with many people in the field that have info on these to collect and assemble the info in these articles. The rarity of these means it really can take a village to provide more complete info like this.
Comments
When I look at mine, I see the same spotty toning pattern down in the "1929" characters that I see in the other markings.
That is not a toning pattern that can be faked (and why would anyone fake it even if they could ?). There are auction records for these going back many years. So if the "1929" was added after the fact, it wasn't done much later than 1933.
Here's a highly suspicious counterstamp.......
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12387764#Comment_12387764
Good notes on the toning.
Seems like the seller had 3, all from the same ATS submission. Interestingly, one of them has "JO" on the other side.
I picked up both of the 2 other specimens as they are an interesting way to collect these.
Here are PhotoVision's of two of the "JO" pieces, with "JO" on each side.
Seems like only 3 specimens are known?
I think you’re exactly right. I spoke with the seller a bit and he advised he had all 3 but wasn’t aware of any others. I have the final specimen. So, between you and I, it appears we have all 3!
Glad you reached out to him! Was he able to provide any info on where he got these from or the history of these?
He unfortunately had very little information. He advised he bought all 3 in an estate lot. Beyond that, he knew nothing else. So, they still certainly remain quite the mystery!
Do you know when he purchased them?
The only related person with J O initials would be Jacque Ostheimer who passed away in 2021.
Does any Al Overton relative have a first name that starts with "J" ?
I haven't seen any only use "J.O" on his FindAGrave entry, but it does show that his wife's middle name starts with "J": Canzada Johnson Overton. Johnson is his wife's maiden name so that could be an interesting connection. She passed away in 1997.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/111872402/albert-c-overton
@yosclimber posted this family tree in the Al Overton thread which indicates Al's father-in-law's name is Jesse Oliver so for Overton we have the following:
Did Al do anything numismatic with his wife or father-in-law?
Granted, these may be stretches but it's something and not nothing.
And if you are going to stamp something, these Pedley-Ryan Dollars are a good candidate as they are more common than other pieces and have simple designs.
The "Johnson-Overton" angle is a bit more interesting as TD just mentioned that Al's wife was involved in numismatics, would attend coin club meetings and was protective of his work. The following was posted in the Albert Overton thread:
The information in this thread has been collected and synthesized into a reference article now. Much thanks to @dcarr, @JP_Coins, @JRay123, and others for collaborating on this article!
The definitive history of these is yet to be known, but the theories and support/discussion is presented for each.
https://privatemintnews.com/articles/so-called-dollars_ngc-certifies-pedley-ryan-jo-counterstamps/
Absolutely wonderful, incredibly well-written/researched article, @Zoins. This gives significant context behind these pieces and is an excellent read. — Thank you for giving back to and enriching the numismatic community with additional historical references that’ll be used for years to come!
Thanks @JP_Coins! It's great to work with many people in the field that have info on these to collect and assemble the info in these articles. The rarity of these means it really can take a village to provide more complete info like this.
This one just sold for over $400 which seems to be a strong price.
This one is provenanced to Matt Flacker.