Which is the obverse of the Oregon Trial half dollar?

CaptHenway

From the 1927 U.S, Mint Report via the Newman Numismatic Portal

MWallace

The reverse is the obverse.

silverbul

it's one or the other.

MFeld

I’m absolutely stunned that you didn’t know. The obverse is the side opposite the reverse.

😈

Mr_Spud

From https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/obverse-of-a-coin-768467

Expert numismatists still don't agree as to which side is the obverse and which side is the reverse. However, most people agree that the side of the coin with the year it was minted in is the obverse.

waisaacs

I am not claiming expertise, but I looked up the current law regarding coinage and found https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5112 which mentions

The reverse side of each coin shall have the inscriptions “United States of America” and “E Pluribus Unum” and a designation of the value of the coin.

Can anyone dig the equivalent language from the time of this coinage?

Is the issue that it's unusual to have a figure (or say a portrait) on the reverse?

jesbroken

Goodness, guys and gals. The obverse is always, always on the front of the coin. Jeez.
Jim

Connecticoin

PCGS holders mine with the Native American on the front, so that MUST be the obverse 😁

amwldcoin

@Mr_Spud said:
From https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/obverse-of-a-coin-768467

Expert numismatists still don't agree as to which side is the obverse and which side is the reverse. However, most people agree that the side of the coin with the year it was minted in is the obverse.

That's the way I treat all but British stuff with a few exceptions.

Smudge

Tough to play heads or tails with that one.

ChrisH821

Both sides are the obverse and the edge is the reverse.

oih82w8

It's the side with LIBERTY on it.

The reverse always, as far as I can remember, has the denomination on it.

BTW, check your spelling @CaptHenway, shouldn't it be TRAIL and not TRIAL...or was it a trial piece of the trail?

silverbul

flip it up in the air and call heads, witch ever side ends up is, well you know.

Raybo

Obverse is always the best looking side...............

RegistryCoin

So, with the date and United States of America on the “other side”, are USPI coins an exception?

emeraldATV

Isn't the flagman always at the head of caution while traveling.
(Flagwoman)

BillJones

One definition of the obverse is that it’s the side where the date appears. Using that criterion, the reverse of all gold dollars is really the obverse. I am not buying it. To me, the obverse is the side that sets the tone for the coin’s design.

Namvet69

Is the US mint ever wrong? You get to choose. Peace Roy

Tibor

At one time, wasn't the side which states the issuing country the obverse?

ricko

Interesting.... Which side of the pancake goes up on the plate? I will leave such details to those to whom it matters. Cheers, RickO

WilliamF

@ricko said:
Interesting.... Which side of the pancake goes up on the plate? I will leave such details to those to whom it matters. Cheers, RickO

The reverse of the pancake goes up

Unless... the reverse is burnt, and then the obverse goes up!

Connecticoin

@WilliamF said:

@ricko said:
Interesting.... Which side of the pancake goes up on the plate? I will leave such details to those to whom it matters. Cheers, RickO

The reverse of the pancake goes up

Unless... the reverse is burnt, and then the obverse goes up!

The burnt side is always the reverse, at least when I am cooking

CaptHenway

Burnside is on the Antietam half.

BryceM

The side with the prettiest toning is the obverse, obviously.

braddick

We're viewing the rear of the oxen and the front of the Indian. Thus wagon train is the reverse, and the Indian is the obverse.

retirednow

I find this to be a fun question and post.

We may wish to start at the beginning!

The Coinage Act of 1792 specified that all coins have an “impression emblematic of liberty,” the inscription “LIBERTY,” and the year of coinage on the obverse side. The Act required that the reverse of gold and silver coins have a representation of an eagle and the inscription, “UNITED STATES OF AMERICA".

of course this change over time with the evolution for the mint and coinage designs. There does not appear to be a hard and fast rule but it appears the central image (Profile i.e. liberty or whom ever) has been the default the obverse (As Heads) .

Not sure what one does with this this design

waisaacs

The PCGS Coin Facts app (and maybe someone tell me if this is the case for the TrueView images in general) seem to show the obverse on the left and reverse on the right. But I noticed the Bay Bridge commemorative appears backwards according to some of the rules mentioned here:

The date should indicate the obverse, and the denomination description and "United States of America" should be on the reverse. Apparently here the portrait of the bear looked obverse-y enough for them?

waisaacs

Same with the Boone, maybe there are other examples

thefinn

For UK and Commonwealth coins, the side with the monarch’s portrait is the obverse.

Connecticoin

@thefinn said:
For UK and Commonwealth coins, the side with the monarch’s portrait is the obverse.

True, but in Canada the date and the more interesting side on the reverse, so they are holdered reverse out almost every time.

waisaacs

The NGC https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/united-states/commemoratives/silver-commemoratives-1892-1954/19340/1926-oregon-trail-50c-ms/ explicitly label the images and include in the description

The design was completed by the famed husband and wife team of James Earle and Laura Gardin Fraser. Mrs. Fraser had designed several commemorative coins, notably the 1922 Grant half dollar and dollar, and her husband, who is credited with the obverse design of the Oregon Trail half, is remembered for creating one of the most memorable of all coin designs, the Buffalo nickel. The obverse (actually considered the reverse by the Frasers and most collectors) depicts a Conestoga wagon drawn by oxen heading into a setting sun. IN GOD WE TRUST arcs above the wagon, and below are ORGEON TRAIL MEMORIAL and the date. The reverse depicts a strikingly rendered Indian with bow in hand, standing with an outstretched arm in front of a map of the country. Around the Indian is the inscription UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and HALF DOLLAR is found below.

Their labeling also goes against the original documentation and the general coinage code mentioned previously.

Zoins

This needs to be a poll

waisaacs

I submitted feedback through the PCGS Coin Facts app, summarizing this discussion in the context of a potential error in the display of these coins. I made it clear that I wasn't claiming expertise to say that they have things wrong, but asking what criteria they used to make the obverse/reverse designation.

I'll copy their reply here if I get one and they give permission for me to do so.

I think this discussion struck a nerve with me because of my background in data science. I was always "cleaning" data and generally wrangling it into consistency, and this hits me as a data error/inconsistency.

Sorry if I'm making something out of what everyone else here considers nothing. I'm new here and am not always sure if I'm reading the room right.

BillJones

@CaptHenway said:
Burnside is on the Antietam half.

Actually it’s Lee and McClellan, but Burnside was in the wings after Lincoln canned McClellan for not following up on his “victory” at Antietam. Lincoln said that McClellan “had the slows.” It was actually a draw, but Lee was forced to retreat south, which made it a victory.

CaptHenway

@BillJones said:

@CaptHenway said:
Burnside is on the Antietam half.

Actually it’s Lee and McClellan, but Burnside was in the wings after Lincoln canned McClellan for not following up on his “victory” at Antietam. Lincoln said that McClellan “had the slows.” It was actually a draw, but Lee was forced to retreat south, which made it a victory.

Look at the name of the bridge..........

BillJones

@CaptHenway said:

@BillJones said:

@CaptHenway said:
Burnside is on the Antietam half.

Actually it’s Lee and McClellan, but Burnside was in the wings after Lincoln canned McClellan for not following up on his “victory” at Antietam. Lincoln said that McClellan “had the slows.” It was actually a draw, but Lee was forced to retreat south, which made it a victory.

Look at the name of the bridge..........

Yes, the bridge was named for him because he concentrated attack on that narrow spot. He was too short-sighted (Shall I say dumb?) to figure out that his superior forces could have forded the shallow river at another spot. December 1862, Burnside would be responsible for a Union bloodbath at Fredericksburg when he was determined to attack Confederate forces who had the high ground. The hapless Union soldiers were shot like fish in a barrel.

In January 1863, Burnside tried to move his artillery in the middle of huge rainstorm. The cannon sank to their axels. It was known as “Burnside’s Mud March.” Lincoln replaced him with Joe Hooker who embarrassed at the Battle of Chancellorsville.

Cougar1978

I go with the obv as designated by PCGs which has the Indian chief. The conquest of the west was the glorious execution of manifest destiny (ordained by god). See reverse.

Sapyx

The cause of division here is that the three different definitions of "obverse", which usually correlate closely, are widely divergent for this coin.

1. "Technical": the mint, pretty much always, has one side internally defined as "the obverse". It needs to do this, because coin dies are not interchangeable; obverse and reverse dies are physically different. The mint's gotta "pick a side" and make one side the obverse.
2. "Legal": The government legislation authorizing the coinage issue will usually specify what the obverse and reverse designs are to be.
3. "Conventional": Collector convention, which has its own set of rules as to which features are more important when considering which side of a coin to label the "obverse".

Which of these you consider to be the "most important", for a coin where the definitions do not correlate, is entirely a matter of personal choice.

For my own choice, I disregard options 1 and 2 entirely, and have my own flowchart of criteria to decide which side of any coin, from anywhere and anywhen, is "the obverse":

• If a coin has a portrait on it, the side with the portrait is the obverse.
• If a coin has portraits on both sides, then the portrait of the person with "higher rank" is the obverse. Example: the notorious "Churchill crown" with the Queen on one side and Winston Churchill on the other: the Queen out-ranks the prime minister, so her side is the obverse. Living people also "out-rank" dead people, allegorical figures, and deities.
• If a coin has no portraits, but does have a coat of arms (or similar official national symbol or logo) on one side, the side with the coat of arms is the obverse.
• If a coin has different coats of arms on both sides, the arms best representing the actual country issuing the coin is the obverse.
• If a coin has no portrait or coat of arms on either side, the side bearing the name of the country of issue is the obverse.

That flowchart pretty much lets me classify any and all coins I'm likely to encounter. And yes, this does often conflict with the "official" definition from option 2, or the "technical" definition from option 1. Or even the "conventions" used by other collectors, such as "the date is always on the obverse".

So, what do I do with the Oregon Trail half dollar? I do actually have one of these coins and it has to go in my coin database, where I need to put in the obverse and reverse descriptions, so it's not an entirely theoretical question for me. So let's see.

Does it have a portrait? The standing figure is certainly portraitive in style, but a full-body representation of an allegorical being is historically not regarded as a "portrait", numismatically; there are a thousand years of numismatic precedent going all the way back to ancient Greece and Rome. I have to say "no, there is no portrait on this coin".

Does it have a coat of arms? No, that one's easy.

Which leaves us to devolve to the question of "which side has the name of the country". And that be the side with "United States of America" on it, since "Oregon" is not the name of the country issuing this coin. A decision which also happily coincides with the "possible portrait" side: the standing Native American.

I should point out that when I strictly follow my own rules, it must mean I must also define "wrongly" certain other US coins where there's a standing allegorical figure (Standing Liberty quarters, Walking Liberty halves and Saint-Gaudens double eagles, to name a few) as Liberty being on the reverse, and the side naming the country as the obverse. It's not my fault the Roosevelt-era coin designs are abnormal.