Shill bidders on coin rolls
Nulte
Posts: 131 ✭✭
Boy, has ebay REALLY dropped the ball on their shill bidding protocols, and can't seem to nail down OBVIOUS shill bidders. Tell me what you think, I've got a bidder who has bid over 1000 times in a month on 953 items and 96% of his ALL HIGH BIDS with one seller, but he has left ZERO FEEDBACK and hasn't seemed to nail down 1 auction, and all his bids are MID AUCTION, AND he has 3 cancellations. I don't know about you, but this pos has OVER 9000 STARS! Now this just shows me that if I can notice these types of things why doesn't ebay? Because he has 9000 stars and makes ebay mohey. Oh yeah he's A SELLER on ebay as well, kinda hard to win coin rolls when you have a bidder who just raises the price never intending to win but to boost their profits, and PURE GREED. It's 2 sellers working together to pump up profits using stock photos of coins you'll never get AND SHILL BIDDING on top of it? Ebay is going in the toilet. What do you think,shill bidder or TOTAL FRAUD
Comments
I have been on ebay over 25 years.
I never ever even think about shill bidders as I set the price on what I buy.
Simple.
It may be easier for you because you are a dealer and looking to make a profit so anything beyond making a certain profit isn't attractive.
It may be different for collectors that really want a specific piece for their collection.
Must be Nice, to have nothing more to worry about in life than what's going on at eBay.
I think I wouldn't bid on auctions by that seller if I was worried about shill bids.
One of the nicer aspects of being a dealer is that I changed my whole mindset about losing a coin at auction. No worries at all.
Most collectors, except at the most extreme level, would do well to remember this as well! Including me.
Tom
They can still set their own price. No one can make me go higher than I want.
Sure, but a shill can make make prices go higher than without a shill, and as a collector, it may be more important to have a particular piece.
I never go higher than I want, no matter how much I want the piece. Only once did I ever regret it. I set my limits and I stick to it.
It's not just about going higher than one wants, but having it go higher than it would without a shill.
Think of the shill as a reserve. No way you get the coin below the reserve so why stress over it.
Well, I don't stress about it because I snipe
But if it's a reserve, the seller should just use the appropriate eBay mechanism for setting it.
In a perfect world .....
You can worry about shills or not. Neither option is going to change anything.
Just not worth worrying about. I just consider the shill a hidden reserve. Life's too short.
You could still be bidding against a shill.
They should use the reserve but some buyers won't bid in reserve auctions. The buyers are playing as many games (sniping etc) as the sellers.
Sure, but many shills aim to bump up the price and ultimately lose so they don't bid at the end. I'm okay if they really want to win.
Sniping isn't a game, it's how eBay bidding works.
As such, this is a false equivalence since shill bidding is prohibited by eBay, but sniping isn't.
They don't want to win but, again, the shill is a hidden reserve. They could place it at any time. I did it for a friend once. He was worried about the price on a note. I placed a bid early on. At the end, I got outbid by a lot. Two snipers blew me away. But the point is that a shill doesn't have to wait till the end to place a hidden reserve.
Sounds like you violated eBay policy:
https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-policies/selling-practices-policy/shill-bidding-policy?id=4353
"But I could have had the coin for less..."
Yeah, and if the seller had listed it misspelled in the wrong category, you could have won for less, too. Or if a couple of the people who were bidding against you were busy the week the auction was running instead and they never saw it. Or it was listed with a really low BIN and you saw it first.
Lots of ways to maybe pay less, not as many that you have control over.
I didn't say it was on ebay. But I did. 20 years ago. Feel free to report me.
The OP is about eBay and most shill discussions on the forums are about eBay so it seemed like a safe assumption, which turned out to be correct.
It's not just that you did it, but hat you seem to be defending a prohibited practice.
I find it interesting people compare shilling which is prohibited to sniping which is not prohibited.
To me, sniping is like live bidding at Heritage or Stack's. Do you think live bidding at Heritage or Stack's should be disallowed?
The joke is that buyers complain there aren't any real auctions on eBay anymore... then they tell you all their strategies for paying less. And they won't bid in reserve auctions. They hate fixed price. They want 99 cent no reserve auctions to satisfy their lust... and that's why I do 90% BIN. Buy it or don't at MY price.
I did it too. Just once, back in 2005.
I feel so dirty.
I have shilled on Stacks and Heritage also. Even won a couple. Sometimes friendship makes you do things.
Sniping is NOTHING like live bidding. In live bidding, the underbidder can always enter another bid.
I also don't care about sniping. FWIW
You left out sniping. They want auctions where other bidders don't have an opportunity to respond to their bid.
Yes, you've been clear you don't like sniping for many years, but it's not prohibited.
On the other hand, you seem to support prohibited activities.
At least you're clear on where you stand. I'll give you that.
That's why I like a rolling close. EBay should have those. Any bid in the last 3 minutes adds 3 minutes.
And it's a perfect example of why worrying about shills on eBay is a waste of time. jmlanzaf said he did that once. How would eBay have any hope of stopping that kind of bidding? They wouldn't.
Can you imagine, though? Auctions would go on all night, and we'd all be even more sleep-deprived.
Apparently sellers do get banned and given time outs for shilling.
Check out these posts on the eBay community:
I never said I don't like sniping. I said I don't care about sniping just like I don't care about shills.
The fact that I did a friend a favor about 5 times in 25 years is hardly indicative of anything other than friendship. I don't like shill bidding and I've never had my own auctions skilled. But when an insistent friend begs... his friendship mattered more.
Can't make anything of the linked comment. What point do you think it's supporting?
It's a counterpoint for "why worrying about shills on eBay is a waste of time".
Well, if I did it 500 times, they'd probably figure out out.
Personally, what I did wasn't really shilling. If I won it, I would have bought it and he would have paid the fees. In fact, that happened in a Stack's auction. I win an Ireland coin, took delivery, sold it on ebay for a profit.
The 5 times I shilled for him, I win that one but I was never even the underbidder the other times. My presence had no affect on the other 4 auctions. He was just panicky early on.
I've always just started my auctions at the lowest acceptable price. Lol. Even then, people are constantly asking me to BIN at a lower price. People just don't know how auctions are supposed to work.
Sorry, I need more. Can you put your argument in your own words?
Every seller and product is different. Some items are very successful at 99 cent auctions and others aren't. Steve Hayden runs 99 cent auctions every week.
I buy what I want, however the seller wants to sell.
Probably. And then the people who are determined to shill will find a different way to do it.
No, that doesn't happen. People just bid earlier because they can't snipe anymore. Places like Hi Bid use rolling closes. I've never seen an end extended more than 10 or 15 minutes.
Yes, it sounds like a shill bidder and I’d label it fraudulent, as well. Sadly, there’s little or nothing you can do about it, other than report it to eBay. Personally, I wouldn’t bid in that seller’s auctions, even if I really wanted some of his coins and even if I thought I could win them at reasonable prices. Maybe that wouldn’t be smart, but it would make me feel better.And that has value to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
And I buy what I want, however it is sold. If it's an auction, I place my maximum bid early on and then just forget about it until they send me notification that I won. It's very liberating.
For eBay auctions, I always snipe. My approach is also very liberating.
I'm glad we have the same experience, even if we get there differently.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1078035/fs-on-ebay-1943-mexico-centenario-50-pesos-gold-coin-ngc-ms65-1-2-ozs-low-mintage-no-reserve
Except I also don't worry about shills or have to worry about the end time.
I also don't worry about shills, but I understand that others do.
And the end time is part of the enjoyment of the hobby for me. It's an adrenaline rush and I wouldn't have it any other way.
I love the rush. Not the rock group.
I'm not sure that is anything other than one forum member bidding on the auction of another. As long as the bidder is willing to buy it if they win, it's not really a "shill"
You're going to be busy tomorrow...
I actually threw a bunch of bids into that auction. Some interesting material. I won't discuss now but I did have a couple questions for you or Fred but I'll wait until after the auction.
I’m surprised so many people here seem to be ok with a violation of eBay policy. Shilling should not be done whether it impacts the ultimate price or not. Is no one interested in following rules anymore?
Understanding that something happens is not evidence that it is considered acceptable. How would you propose anything be done about shilling on eBay? It's their site and they either will or won't deal with the issue, regardless of what anybody thinks.
edited to add... As far as violating policy goes, I have had eBay CS tell me that my buyer was in violation of their SNAD policy but I still had to pay to have an item returned to me. If eBay violates their own policies while admitting it, well...