1863 $3 from July PCGS Calendar - Grading Question
lermish
Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭✭✭
The $3 is a beautiful coin and this is a beautiful example. I understand condition with this series can be tough but this is commented on as the most highly rated coin in the entire series at 68+. In PCGS' words, a 68 should be "Only the Slightest Weakness in Strike with a few tiny imperfections barely visible".
I would be beyond delighted to own this coin, it's way nicer than my AU example, but I just don't get it. How is this a 68+? I still have a ton to learn so I'm very open to shutting up and listening from those in the know. Can someone explain what I'm missing?
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
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Comments
It has a few tiny imperfections. That's permissible.
That's an 1863 unless my eyes are playing tricks on me.
The scratches/marks under the date seem (to me) more than tiny. Is my calibration for tiny way off?
Edited title for typo, thanks @amwldcoin
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
While the coin looks gorgeous, I think I see more than a few imperfections. If you believe that you’re able to be objective, what grade would you have guessed if this had been a Guess The Grade thread?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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I agree this is a gorgeous example, but Mark's question has merit. I would not have guessed 68. I think I would have said 66+, shot 67
EDIT TO ADD
And I agree with the OP, this is a little bit of a headscratcher in that respect
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Todd - BHNC #242
It does have clashed dies.
I think that the grade of 68 is given out a bit more loosely than we as numismatists expect. For example, a lot of 1936-42 proofs with heavy haze and heavy spots can achieve the grade. As to the coin shown, it does have a few more marks than I expect, but the semi-PL fields and nice toning could have given it the bump from a 67 or 67+ in my opinion.
Coin Photographer.
I don’t recall having seen Proofs with heavy spots in 68 holders.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I've seen a few, they don't pop up often but they are there. A lot of times they are accompanied by the iridescent blue/green/yellow tone of that era in 68 holders, so the spots blend in really well. Of course, my definition of heavy spotting gets much tighter as I go up the grade scale, so it could be different than yours. I can PM you a few examples if you wish.
Coin Photographer.
Please feel free to do so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
67, maybe 68. It's hard to tell how big those hits are. But the reverse is near flawless and I count 5 or 6 hits in the obverse field. They may well be more obvious due to the lighting of the photo.
But you know that the obverse is weighted far more heavily then the reverse and even if it weren’t, your definition of “near flawless” apparently differs from mine. Lastly, I think “5 or 6 hits in the obverse field” is probably an understatement, but still more than “It has a few tiny imperfections”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
5 or 6 is a few. Lol. And shall we try to quantify "tiny"?
It's certainly no worse than a 67. And I can see it a a 68 if those obverse hits are being highlighted by the photo lighting. They mostly stand out because of the reflectivity difference.
Do you think it is worse than a 67?
“Tiny” is easy to quantify - smaller than “small”.😉
I think 5 or 6 would be “several”, and there are more marks than that, anyway.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
https://www.dictionary.com/e/few-vs-couple-vs-several/
So you think it is a 66?
Did you really think I hadn’t looked it up, before posting? 😉
So you think it is a 66?
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Unless it looked better in hand, I don’t think I could get past 67, if to it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
From the picture and as someone who is not an expert in $3 gold, I would have probably guessed 67 for that one. It is a stunning coin but would have to lose one of the two clusters of marks in the left obverse field for me to consider a higher grade. Also, the reverse has serious strike issues on the ribbon knot and leaf immediately to the right. Comparing with other 1863 $3s on CoinFacts, this is not the way they are all struck. I like the 67 shown, which seems PL, better.
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After all these posts the OPs question still wasn't answered.............
"How is this a 68+?"
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
And the answer is… we have no idea what the grade should be. Really though there’s no answer to the question other than PCGS thought it was.
Coin Photographer.
And I suppose that will have to be the best we can do. I feel somewhat satisfied that others agree with me that this may be a touch overgraded, or at least it's not a slam dunk. Now I won't be as perplexed when I look at the calendar on my fridge for the next month.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
What a beautiful looking example. The die clash probably contributes to a dazzling luster although other examples in CoinFacts appear to have that same clash. I think the minor marks on the nose and cheek, though probably nearly imperceptible to the naked eye, make 68 a bit of an overshoot.
Gold is softer so you expect to see more marks than in silver but location of marks shouldn't be discounted.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
With the marks pointed out, I have a hard time seeing the coin as a 68. I do consider it to be an exceptional coin regardless but this one almost feels like it was labeled as 68+ simply to say that is the best looking $3 gold to have come to PCGS, not because it was an actual MS-68 coin.
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer.
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I have the coin as well as several other $3 Golds that grade MS65 and MS66. I will post of video in the next several days showcasing the differences.
The 1863 is the real deal. Much, much better than the 66’s I’ve got. One of my fav gold coins, ever.
Please post a link here once you have made a video, I think a lot of us will appreciate an in hand view of the coin.
Coin Photographer.
I really enjoy the videos that you make, especially the one with JA, that was great!!! (I meant to pull you aside and tell you at Long Beach but you looked like you were in a bit of a hurry wherever you were going) Really look forward to seeing it and thanks for commenting!
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I look forward to the video. Seeing the coin in hand is always much better, and a video comes close - though not quite equivalent. Cheers, RickO
I'm not sure what is accomplished with these 68+ threads.
It becomes nitpicking opinion at these lofty grade levels (67-68) as the stunning eye appeal and unlikely survival story will bias grading upward.
Providing of course the minor ticks are not obtrusive in the critical zones.
I think this is one of those few head shaking civil war gold coins that gets due acclaim for existence.
Then we aren't that far off. I'm easily at 67. But I think it could be 68 in hand.