1868 Silver Dollar Seated Liberty-- Cleaned. Your opinion?

Avocet

A few months ago, I posted images of this 1868 Seated Liberty as a raw coin (I have had it for many years-- picked it up from a great dealer that I knew since I was a kid). The evidence for cleaning on the coin was strong, and everyone provided great comments about this coin based on the images I made.

I have since sent the coin into PCGS, and I got the expected result: Genuine AU-details (92-cleaned). The True View images seem nicely done, and I am interested to know what you think about this coin.

I am happy to have this 1868 Liberty Seated Dollar, and I thought it worthwhile to send it to PCGS. What are your thoughts about this coin— was it a mistake for me to send it in to TPG? Is the cleaning effect so harsh that you would get rid of the coin?

I plan to keep it as it is a beautiful example of Ms. Liberty to me.

Thanks for taking a look…..

Here are the images I made of the raw coin, prior to submission:

Flatwoods

I would definitely have removed the green before having it graded.
It's not a coin that I would purchase but if you like it that's all that matters.
I probably have some things you wouldn't purchase either.

Maywood

Looks to me like active PVC and I find all the spots to be very distracting. It's not a coin I'd want as it now appears but my hunch is that "many years" ago it looked better than it does now, absent the remnants of the cleaning.

conrad99

A great type, and I like good AU coins. The TV is mighty sharp — how do you think the coin looks in hand, relatively speaking?

Walkerguy21D

Because seated dollar fakes are rampant, and this is a better date in a higher grade, it was worth it to get it authenticated. It’s still a relatively valuable coin. I know you don’t plan on selling it, but someday you or your heirs will, and this will help.

However, I would have done conservation on it prior to sending it in. The cleaning is one thing, but those spots kill the eye appeal, at least for me.

conrad99

@Walkerguy21D said:
I would have done conservation on it prior to sending it in. The cleaning is one thing, but those spots kill the eye appeal, at least for me.

That's a good point. If the coin is certain to get a details grade anyway, the temptation to "conserve" it increases.

Avocet

@conrad99 said:
A great type, and I like good AU coins. The TV is mighty sharp — how do you think the coin looks in hand, relatively speaking?

The coin looks nice in hand, which is one reason I picked it up so many years ago. When I did pick this up, I concluded (along with the dealer) that it had been cleaned.

pursuitofliberty

What @Walkerguy21D and @conrad99 said.

While generally I loath "conservation", this is a point where I know t's not coming back straight grade, so getting the spots off would be worthwhile.

Avocet

@Walkerguy21D said:
Because seated dollar fakes are rampant, and this is a better date in a higher grade, it was worth it to get it authenticated. It’s still a relatively valuable coin. I know you don’t plan on selling it, but someday you or your heirs will, and this will help.

However, I would have done conservation on it prior to sending it in. The cleaning is one thing, but those spots kill the eye appeal, at least for me.

I have to admit I never considered seeking conservation prior to submission! I am so focused on not 'touching' coins that I never considered the idea of conservation. It makes perfect sense to seek conservation for this piece since the 'cleaned' barrier has already been breached. I will submit this for conservation and see what happens, and keep everyone posted.

291fifth

It is now attributed as being genuine. That is very important when selling heavily faked coins like Seated Dollars. That said, given the irrational exuberance in the current coin marketplace I think you would be wise to sell it now. It is a problem coin and the problem isn't going to go away.

amwldcoin

@Walkerguy21D said:
Because seated dollar fakes are rampant, and this is a better date in a higher grade, it was worth it to get it authenticated. It’s still a relatively valuable coin. I know you don’t plan on selling it, but someday you or your heirs will, and this will help.

However, I would have done conservation on it prior to sending it in. The cleaning is one thing, but those spots kill the eye appeal, at least for me.

Those spots are burns IMHO. They cannot be removed without ruining the coin.

Avocet

@amwldcoin said:

@Walkerguy21D said:
Because seated dollar fakes are rampant, and this is a better date in a higher grade, it was worth it to get it authenticated. It’s still a relatively valuable coin. I know you don’t plan on selling it, but someday you or your heirs will, and this will help.

However, I would have done conservation on it prior to sending it in. The cleaning is one thing, but those spots kill the eye appeal, at least for me.

Those spots are burns IMHO. They cannot be removed without ruining the coin.

After reviewing the comments on this thread, I am thinking about sending the coin to PCGS for conservation to see what happens. I have never done this before, and I am not sure that PCGS would agree to conserve a cleaned coin. My guess is that PCGS conservation, if performed, would not ruin the coin. I would not want to take a chance on making the damage more severe, either....

amwldcoin

@Avocet said:

@amwldcoin said:

@Walkerguy21D said:
Because seated dollar fakes are rampant, and this is a better date in a higher grade, it was worth it to get it authenticated. It’s still a relatively valuable coin. I know you don’t plan on selling it, but someday you or your heirs will, and this will help.

However, I would have done conservation on it prior to sending it in. The cleaning is one thing, but those spots kill the eye appeal, at least for me.

Those spots are burns IMHO. They cannot be removed without ruining the coin.

After reviewing the comments on this thread, I am thinking about sending the coin to PCGS for conservation to see what happens. I have never done this before, and I am not sure that PCGS would agree to conserve a cleaned coin. My guess is that PCGS conservation, if performed, would not ruin the coin. I would not want to take a chance on making the damage more severe, either....

Personally I don't think I would spend the money. Those hard black spots go deep as a general rule. I would wager the odds are very high PCGS would pass on conservation.

Cougar1978

Moot issue - our hosts opinion is - AU Details Cleaned.

As far as what you do with it u your decision to keep / fill hole in collection or sell. A dealer who once had a table at a show next to mine specialized in problem (details) coins both slabbed and raw. He did a lot of business at the show.

It is not something I would invest in plus dislike the black spots.

skier07

Was the coin spotted when you bought it?

fathom

I also agree do not bother with conservation.

It is a good date in a great series, if you like the historical significance and scarcity then keep it, it will likely hold whatever current value.

Glen2022

@Cougar1978 said:
Moot issue - our hosts opinion is - AU Details Cleaned.

As far as what you do with it u your decision to keep / fill hole in collection or sell. A dealer who once had a table at a show next to mine specialized in problem (details) coins both slabbed and raw. He did a lot of business at the show.

It is not something I would invest in plus dislike the black spots.

Are you saying you would not buy the coin in question or not buy details coins n general? If you won't buy details coins, why?

As one with limited means, I will consider and occasionally buy details coins but only if I like the coin, its appearance. and price. I sometimes can get a nice coin at a much lower cost where I would not be able to afford a straight graded coin.

lkenefic

I'd have tried conservation before sending it in for grading since you knew it was cleaned in the first place. At least an acetone bath would give you insights as to whether the spots could be conserved. Now that you have a Seated Dollar that's been authenticated by our host, in a market rife with counterfeits, I'd be more inclined to sell it rather than spend more money getting it "more presentable". The market for Seated Anything (especially Dollars) and Trade Dollars is currently really hot. I was seriously looking at chopped Trade Dollars and the completed sales for chopped XF-AU coins was only about $75 less than what I paid for a straight-graded AU53 just back in December.

Avocet

@skier07 said:
Was the coin spotted when you bought it?

The spots were there when I picked up the coin many years ago -- the price was consistent with the appearance of the coin (I did not spend very much on it), and back then I was more willing to compromise for such a rare addition to my collection.

Crusty

I’d say sell the coin before we go into a full scale recession. Get what you can for her and put that money toward a coin you truly enjoy. I would not waste the time and money conserving this coin. There is little to be gained by doing so. And every dollar spent chasing this rabbit is eating away at your chance to get out of the coin without losing money.

jesbroken

I agree with Greg, I would have conserved it also. It would have benefitted greatly in the future selling which would eventually occur. The PVC should certainly been removed before encapsulation.
Jim

Walkerguy21D

@amwldcoin said:

@Avocet said:

@amwldcoin said:

@Walkerguy21D said:

Personally I don't think I would spend the money. Those hard black spots go deep as a general rule. I would wager the odds are very high PCGS would pass on conservation.

I was thinking there’s a chance of that too…,
My recommendation made offline to the OP was to call pcgs first, and get their thoughts, if they think they can help it at all, prior to sending it back.
Though they may insist on seeing it in hand (again), before deciding if anything can be done.

pursuitofliberty

Good advice on the call ... and another option if @Avocet is going to a show that PCGS is at, is to bring it and ask them in person, without shipping back and forth.

Avocet

@pursuitofliberty said:
Good advice on the call ... and another option if @Avocet is going to a show that PCGS is at, is to bring it and ask them in person, without shipping back and forth.

Thanks to everyone for great tips-- worth a try to call, and/or bring the coin to a show for an in-person review. If I were ever to try conservation on a coin, this coin would be a great candidate if the professional conservationists believe it worthwhile. I should have posted the plan to submit beforehand! It will be interesting to see what happens, and I will keep everyone updated....

LanceNewmanOCC

has anyone noticed on some coins with spots like this or similar to, it looks like they are welding/smelting splatter?

ive had/seen only a few coins with what i'm talking about but it looks like little pieces of metal with the corresponding (oxidation?) from the heat around the spots.

since this thread SEEMS to have taken it's course, i'll look to see if i can find that 78 8tf (i sent to @messydesk ) LONG AGO. it actually turned out (at the time) to be a pretty decent scarce vam.

EUREKA! - really old images and not too impressive. did what i could to zoom/improve on the black spot which had "eaten" into the coin.

ricko

It will be interesting to see if PCGS will conserve the coin.... Depending on what the spots are, it may be too late. Probably cheaper to sell the coin as is...Cheers, RickO

semikeycollector

This is an attractive sharp coin. Aside from the spots there is an alternate cloudiness and brightness on the reverse, associated with cleaning. Also on the obverse right field I sense the lines of a wiping. This amount of wiping often gets passed over and a straight grade is given.

Paradisefound

Interesting to see if it would grade.

1Mike1

I would've kept it raw.