So much for eye appeal...
conrad99
Posts: 375 ✭✭✭
Chacun à son gôut, as they say. I will admit it's "interesting" and—for a PeaceDollar—unusual. I bet it looks better in hand.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/market-analysis-unusual-toning-on-1923-s-dollar
1
Comments
I'd like to see the TrueView.
peacockcoins
Coloring is definitely unusual. I’m not sold on it as being a better than average strike. It looks…..pretty average 🙄
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/44929120
That is just ugly.
Appears to have been upgraded from a pcgs ms65 to the 65+. Honestly is one of the ugliest coins I’ve seen. This is a case where the color should be downgrading it, not giving it a +
https://coins.ha.com/itm/peace-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1923-s-1-ms65-pcgs-pcgs-7362-/a/1344-4472.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/peace-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1923-s-1-ms65-pcgs-pcgs-7362-/a/1333-3994.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
Thanks for the TV link. Definitely a coin I'd not buy from pics.
ETA Image...
That looks like the illustration to "Don't Let This Happen To Your Coins!"
i luv her!
she can be my smurfette.
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pretty sure if pcgs certified poop (coprolite), i'd buy some. rotfl
Might as well post the HA with holder images from 1madman post.
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
That coin is really ugly. Hard pass on that one.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That's just plain fugly 🤢
Technical grading wise it might be a Gem and the toning might be legit as it's just too darn ugly to be AT.
Looks like water or chlorine damage. Someone went to the well for this one.
Thanks for these. Yet another object lesson in purchasing from photos. I'd be a buyer if the HA were the only pics I'd seen. Not at the stratospheric level that coin actually brought, but at some price.
Since so many sellers insist on presenting a grand total of two photos—one of each face—selling "on approval" (which is essentially what eBay has become) has become the online standard.
Yeah, we pay first, ostensibly; but only those who like to live dangerously do so without recourse.
That’s what I was thinking, a bleach job that went horribly wrong.
So how did it 'straight grade' then? Just another anomaly?
Now I've gone to the HA listing and I see there are two sets of photos. The ones with the holders make it look better.
not a coin I'd be interested in just doesn't catch my eye
2003-present
https://www.omnicoin.com/security/users/login
Actually the photo in the holder makes the coin somewhat attractive. This 1921 Peace dollar was graded MS-63 by our host.
carolinacollectorcoins.com
Sorry, I meant 1922 Peace dollar!
carolinacollectorcoins.com
I have found that the HA picture with the holder is usually fairly close to what the coin looks like under normal viewing (example with a lamp light source at a convention/show). Most often if it has toning then it will actually have a little more toning than the HA photo with the holder. I can't say that I have ever seen a coin look like the HA photo without the holder and that includes silver 'white' coins.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
It's an interesting coin, and I personally think it is pretty. Not $8,000 pretty, though. I do seriously wonder where the toning came from, though.
Young Numismatist
It's not a look that most would favor, but that's Peace dollars.
The 23-S is an incredibly difficult coin to find in nice condition. I don't think any are well-struck. At best, they're "better than average." Surfaces and luster are responsible for most of the grade. A clean, flashy coin will always do well with the graders. Maybe it's a technical 66, knocked back a bit for a strange look. I bet it's kind of pretty in-hand though.
When I had my registry set, I never really did find a 23-S that I thought was superb.
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it isn't. i blew up the TV and she has some battle scars.
i can give you all something else to pick on. it sold for half of guide!
Definitely worth seeing in hand. Anyone have done so?
Here are the single sided TrueViews:
Sold for $8,700 on PCGS Price Guide price of $16,000.
The grade is very high. It's a POP 14/4 coin!
I meant like it was found in a river or a wishing well and not purposely toned.
Old silver found in rivers usually turns dark blue or black depending on many different conditions.
How come PCGS will downgrade AU coins missing luster, but ignores MS coins missing luster and toned? Do you AU coins not tone, only MS?
I sure would like to know the history of locations that this coin has seen. That one has seen some serious climate change in the last 99 years.
At first glance it made me think a moldy blue cheese label would match it, but as I keep looking at it, I actually am starting to like the coin a bit more.
Only 4 graded higher and that is a low purchase price. Can't imagine what a restoration request resubmittal would end up like.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Do you think if the coin was dipped to be blast white, it would upgrade to ms66 or higher?
I doubt it would end up blast white and it might expose some other hidden faults. Very risky to mess with it.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
The Heritage pics look much nicer than the PCGS pics. The PCGS pics also show lack of depth and detail. JMO
Beauty is in the eye of the _________
A ) Needle
B ) Holder
C ) Storm
D ) Potato
Likely Mr. Albanese's folks didn't care for it either. To each his own.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
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ya, that is a pretty sad price for a 14/4 San Fran PEACE dollar. Talk about not getting recognition. i've seen somewhat similar toning on morgans and people still don't like the splotchy toning but in the recent environment, they still have huge premiums.
perhaps with our species' history, they would do better if they were called WAR dollars?
For my part, i doubt i'd pay any MAJOR premiums for any toned coins unless i knew they had been sniffed, so i could sleep knowing they'd be stable longer. Something along those lines of pcgs not guaranteeing RD copper designations.
i remember many years ago, toners started bringing MAJOR premiums and then all of a sudden the availability of toned coins across the board skyrocketed. also seen the same thing with errors but that is another conversation.
imo the real thing that held the coin back is the damage it has taken for the 65+ grade. peace dollar are one of the hardest graded coins on a curve when it comes to strike and contact marks.
ok i'm all over the board here. time for lunch.
Simply ugly - not for me.
The correct answer is none of the above. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is ugly. That coin is ugly.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
When pricing it is generally not a good idea to just look at a price guide. To me the price guide appears to be out of date. Perhaps a white (or nicely toned) 65+ cac could sell near the price guide today or more. What happened was a cac sold for 25K at Legend in 2019 and the price guide jumped up. Then later in 2019 a non-cac sold for 14K. Then early 2020 a non-cac sold for 8K and a hazy white a the same auction sold for 3600. The guide came down some more. So what is supporting this 16K price guide. Certainly not the last several auction results. Maybe some dealer data but was that cac?
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
It looks better in hand, one hand holding it the other hand covering it up.
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thanks for doing that. it inspired me to dig a bit and i admit, "i stand corrected!"
there are some major prices for the 66 level of this date and as you mention a couple not too shabby ms65+ results.
https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=790+231+51&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Nty=1&Ntt=1923-s+$1&ic4=KeywordSearch-A-K-071316
https://legendauctions.hibid.com/auctions/past/lots/?q=$1+1923-s&cat=158&SortOrder=0
notable prices from HA in the past couple years:
8-21 $50k ms66
1-22 $33.6k ms66
8-19 $14.4k ms65+
the coin from the OP
8-21 $4.3k (no plus)
6-22 $8.7k (plus)
so the blue coin technically did good since it not only upgraded but doubled in price.
my guess for the LM monster price for the 65+ was probably an upgrade lock?
@LanceNewmanOCC
I think the Legend one in 2019 was a CAC thing, but could have been some upgrade lookers.
The cert is still active so it was either not regraded (cert would be deactivated on regraded) and only reconsidered or cracked out an cert not turned in or not tried at all.
It sold at Legend previously as a 65 (no plus) cac ogh and then returned shortly thereafter as a plus for a big win for the submitter and upgrade.
Legend auction as 65 5/16/2019 $6169.
Note a big price for a 65 and only 4 cac in auction prices 6169, 3600, 7931, 5875. So it looks like cac sell high.
https://legendauctions.hibid.com/lot/50797628/-1-1923-s-pcgs-ms65-cac/
Legend auction as 65+ 9/26/2019. $25,850
https://legendauctions.hibid.com/lot/55602871/-1-1923-s-pcgs-ms65--cac/
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
I am sure she has a good personality
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ya. green on green and a decent looking coin in a tough grade. good call.
This one's on eBay for only $29!
Less desirable date though
I can add a little provenance on the coin in the OP. I thought it looked familiar and finally got back home to check the source I thought I had recently noticed it in. This coin is in the auction catalog for the December 13, 2012 Legend-Morphy Las Vegas Rare Coin Auctions. The photos show the exact toning pattern, obverse and reverse, although the catalog photos are a little darker. I'll transcribe the description below:
217 - $1 1923-S NGC MS65.
This is an "old friend" to our associates at Legend Numismatics. Way back in 1989 this coin was purchased by them for a whopping $15,000 to complete a major Peace Set that sold, at the time, for a record $250,000! For a 23-S, it has amazing luster. The luster shows off spectacular ORIGINAL, but slight irregular shades of blue/deep gold/purple/violet colors that are all over. You can easily see beneath the colors. There are a few light lines and a couple of ticks, all hidden by the toning. Most important, Miss Liberty and the details are very well struck. This coin will bring much pride to its next owner. Good luck!
(PCGS# 7362) EST. 3,500.00 - 4,000.00
So it has gone from NGC 65 in 2012, to PCGS 65 by 2021, to PCGS 65+ by 2022. How long til it reaches 66?
By the way, I am new here and this is my initial post. I am an Ike minor varieties collector (I hear those sighs and eye rolls), so at least I won't be competing with many of you for choice coins you collect. I also won't be posting "Do I have a ..." questions, I have been studying Ike varieties for several years and have read and digested all the sources I can find. No parking lot finds from me (and when was the last time you found an Ike in a parking lot?)
Welcome to the forum!